SSD’s Minister of Propaganda is a former member of the IC and we back FirstSpear’s sentiment regarding the IC. It’s a dirty job but someone’s got to do it.
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This seems like a maddeningly ambiguous political statement.
SSD has been 99% politics free, which is great.
You know what happens to Americans who get sent to AQ/ISIS “black sites”? They get their heads chopped off with the video forever archived on LiveLeak.
KSM was reportedly waterboarded xxx times. He also killed 3000 American citizens.
Contrary to what some future Presidential candidates may think, jihadists cannot be empathized with from some arbitrary moral high ground that is occupied by those not engaged in the daily fight against America’s enemies.
Those people in the Intelligence Community who are willing to take the true moral high ground and put the needs of the Nation above the needs of the individual to ensure mission accomplishment and national security deserve no less thant the unconditional and unequivocal support of the American people.
How’s that for ambiguity?
I thought the intelligence community was in the busines of extracting intelligence, not exacting revenge.
And I don’t think we should use the actions of terrorist animals as a baseline to determine proper conduct. That’s why we’re a better nation than others.
I support the intelligence community, but the report this post presumably refers to shows a dramatic failure of CIA leadership. They ordered their people to conduct illegal, immoral, ineffective torture, and then lied about it.
Torture which, I might add, other intelligence agencies did not use. And yet those other agencies have been extraordinarily effective.
Anyway, sorry I spouted off; as I noted, SSD has been commendably non-political through its history, and this is neither the time nor the place to have this conversation.
Sorry I started it; my fault.
So I’m going to shut up now.
Trail-edge burner on the point.
We’re only a better nation than others when we do whatever it takes to protect our citizens. And that includes actions which may offend the delicate sensibilities of those with no real emotional stake in the matter.
To which other “extraordinarily effective” intelligence agencies do you refer? And how do you quantify “effectiveness?”
The irony of your argument is that you, or someone you love, may very well be alive today because of the “effectiveness” of the exact methods you’re decrying.
Nice try with that little fear mongering at the end there.
But like I said, not going to discuss further.
I stand with First Spear and SSD..
I will never buy First Spear again.
Good. I however, being a proud IC member for the majority of my adult life, will support them with my hard earned, blood and sweat soaked dollars.
Cheers.
So, you’re planning to give more money to a company because they made a public political statement?
A simple statement is all it took for you to decide that they deserve a hand in your wallet?
Odd.
Buy products cause they meet your need, not to help a corporate entity feel “supported” and “popular”.
Condor and Voodoo Tactical make everything you need. ????
Ha. Well Played Sir.
Hmm, we dropped thermobaric weapons into caves to kill people or have run over them with tanks, yet people are arguing the “morality” of waterboarding to get info…
Funny thing is the number of people who go “I support the troops” yet don’t support the foundation necessary to point us in the right direction…
Ask Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, etc. about morality in war with fanatical Islam….
Mac,
A lot of people seem to be comfortable with embracing “situational morality” in this conflict. The ends justify the means?
So if our enemies are terrorists and monsters you as an individual and we as a nation should readily shed our own moral values and engage in the same level of barbarism?
I’m admittedly not much of a Christian…but I don’t remember Jesus advocating anything like that. I know, no fair asking WWJD,,,because we all know he wasn’t big on situational morality.
The Laws of Conflict (even those we aren’t necessarily bound to by treaty) give combatants a great deal of latitude in how we can kill other combatants.
So don’t worry, we can still drive over them and drop weapons down caves as necessary. And its perfectly legal…as it should be.
War is brutal. But we didn’t have to sink to the level of the NAZIs or Imperial Japan to defeat those threats. And I would say to you that we don’t have to sink to the level of ISIL to defeat the threat of terrorism.
TLB
Nope, not like the Japanese at all, sending off the immigrants to isolated camps away from their families, burning down their cities with fire bombs and wiping out tens of thousands of civilians with nuclear weapons is the high and mighty American way.
Sorry, you’re last paragraph was stupid.
Mobious,
I’m with you on the detention of Japanese Americans. That was indeed unjust and unnecessary.
As for the Atomic bombings. My uncle was a member of the 11th Airborne and was prepping for the invasion of Japan when the bombs were dropped.
Those paratroopers and their parents at home felt no ambiguity about dropping the bomb and ending the war. And unlike the discussion here there is no doubt that decision saved countless American lives.
The estimates were that 1 million Japanese would be killed during the invasion. So as harsh as that sounds, dropping the 2 Atomic bombs and ending the war saved civilian lives.
The Laws of Armed Conflict requires combatants to take every reasonable measure to limit civilian casualties. Sometimes that simply is not possible….and the law recognizes that.
The measure of America’s greatness in my mind – and I’m sure you will disagree – is that we choose NOT to brutalize our enemies once they were defeated.
That is almost unheard of in history. There are WW II era Japanese and Germans that I have met who absolutely love the USA. That too is unheard of.
So we as a country have a lot to be proud of and we are big enough, strong enough and confident enough to recognize and admit when we make mistakes.
TLB
Well said Sir!
Even if torture/enhanced interrogation does not float your boat, the IC personnel deserve our consideration. If the news reports and the Senate report are mostly accurate, there was considerable debate among those handed the dirty business. Let us agree to support those guys and gals forced to make the tough calls.
I feel compelled to add my two cents.
First off lets establish torture…If I pull out your fingernails with pliers, take a blow torch to your genitals, beat you with a length of logging chain, nail gun you to a wooden chair and then cut off your eyelids with a razor blade and finish you off by dumping gasoline on you and lighting a match….Thats torture.
If I smack you around little, pretend I’m going to take a power drill to you or put a gun to your head, water board you and sleep deprive you and put you in some uncomfortable positions maybe a small wooden box….Thats called SERE school. We do it to our own guys during SERE training thats how we know how well it works.
So all you pussies and arm chair experts shut the fuck up. Ever hear of Black Jack Pershing?? That dude had it right! You idiots that don’t have the stomach for real war and how to deal with a ruthless barbaric enemy go back to watching American Idol keep your stupid opinions to yourselves and let the men in the field do what they need to do to keep suicide bombers from ruining your Sunday afternoon christmas shopping.
CRH,
Having been on both sides of the SERE fence CRH I can tell you that the techniques employed in SERE school are purposely derived from real torture techniques used by our enemies against US personnel in previous wars.
We tried, convicted and executed numerous enemy soldiers and leaders for torturing US personnel with these techniques (sleep depravation, sensory depravation and water boarding to name a few). And rightly so.
These techniques were used by North Vietnam against our people and we condemned those techniques then and still to this day. John McCain for one knows that first hand and he has always called it torture.
I don’t accept the notion that we can claim these techniques don’t constitute torture now because “we’re the good guys”…and we had “good intentions”.
The SERE student is exposed to these techniques briefly and under tightly controlled conditions. Because even the “watered down” versions (no pun intended) are still very realistic and dangerous if improperly applied.
I couldn’t care less if you think I am a “pussy” because I don’t agree with you. But I can assure you that I won’t STFU because you say so.
TLB
Terry B. Thanks for the reply. since you took the time to respond I will articulate more.
I am not a SERE instructor, Im a patriot and a regular guy who watched the second plane hit the second tower live on TV, who watched in horror as many of us did, burning people jump to their deaths, I watched the murder of 3000 innocent people unfold right before my eyes. I fought in both theaters and saw and participated first hand in the savagery of combat. I killed and watched my friends die. I directly and indirectly participated in various “Detainee programs”. None of which involved “Torture” and all of which were effective in extracting good actionable intelligence.
You and everyone else that believes in Moral High ground in war is a pussy. This notion of “Good Guys and Bad Guys” is complete horse shit. War is war and the side that can over whelm the opposition with shear brutality and crush them psychologically is the victor. I recommend you read a book called the
“Devil”s Guard”.
Our men and women of the Combat Arms, SOF, and Intelligence communities have done nothing less than an outstanding job with both hands tied behind their backs by this weak as fuck administration. I would also like to note that during the times when these techniques were being used we intercepted and thwarted 36 additional attacks on our soil.
How many attacks and failures have there been on this administration’s watch?
Did we forget about the under wear bomber that burned his dick off? Good thing he was a terrible bomb maker otherwise there would have been 400 dead americans falling from the sky above Detroit on Christmas, How about the VBIED that was set up in times square during new years that once again didn’t kill anyone because of bad bomb building. Lets not forget about The Boston Marathon, The Fort Hood Shooting, and of Course Benghazi, An ambassador Murdered and an embassy burned to the ground went completely unanswered.
When during the Bush administration did the FBI tell the American people to scrub their Facebook accounts of personal info because they have credible intelligence that ISIS is going to target Americans on American soil?
This administration has done nothing but divided our country and made us look weak in the face of our allies and our enemies. Period.
I support the Intelligence community, and enhanced interrogation because it works and saves lives. If you think otherwise then yes you should shut the fuck up and move to some other country that supports your liberal sensibilities and inexperienced opinions on how wars should be fought.
John McCain = huge pussy, right?
Until Oct 2011 when I retired I was one of those SOF personnel CRH. And had been for many years.
I watched the same live feed on 9/11 as the Trade Center buildings were struck.
I too fought in both the theaters and participated in the “savagery of combat”.
But that doesn’t mean that I became a savage.
So I’d appreciate it if you would spare me the chest thumping and name calling and the politics.
TLB
No one is chest pounding, I’m simply qualifying my opinion with tacit first hand experience. Retired SOF dude huh? Well sounds like you lost your stomach for it. Glad you retired thanks for your service. The warriors I know that are steely eyed killers in the truest sense of the word warrior, don’t talk the pussified touchy feely crap you do. As far as John McCain goes no I don’t think he’s a pussy, he’s a good American and has the right to his opinion like the rest of us. However he’s also a career politician. He also should be glad he wasn’t facing Alqaeda or ISIS because he would have gotten his head cut off and while he can speak out against “Torture” from an intimate standpoint it was because he was tortured, beaten and had bones broken, all the stuff we don’t do. So some dirt bags died of hypothermia oh well, you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet. Since you are a supposed retired SOF guy you know that we don’t just go out and capture random military aged males for fun. Our targeting process is in depth and backed by iron clad substantiated intel. Terrorists don’t end up at “Black sites” by mistake or because they are decent human beings. Our enemies are ruthless and execute their prisoners by beheading so if you want to use you’re bullshit good guy moral ground measuring stick if we hypothetically took a blow torch and pliers to our prisoners we are still way out ahead of them on the moral curve because we aren’t murdering bound defenseless people and putting it on the internet. Technology and air power are great advantages but if we can’t defeat the enemy in his mind with fear before he even sets foot on the battlefield and if we continue to falsely believe there is a politically and morally just way to fight war we are setting ourselves up for a long long conflict.
CRH,
OK, if you insist on dick measuring.
I served for 36 years first as an infantryman and the last 22 years in Special Forces.
I spent 90 months in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention a lot of other not-so-nice places in the years before 9/11.
“Lost my stomach for it”…not hardly.
You must not know a lot of SOF guys. The vast majority that I know are not one dimensional “steely eyed warriors”.
They are tough, very smart, dedicated professionals and patriots. I am proud to have served in their ranks.
And if you had ever been in a Team Room you would know that SOF personnel hold and are not shy to defend diverse opinions. They don’t all think alike.
In short, they don’t all think like you or me.
So let’s be real. This is the internet. You are free to disregard everything I have said.
And I am free to disregard your opinion about what does or does not constitute a “real man” or “real patriot” or “real SOF guy”.
And I already have.
TLB
Ahhh, the ego and pride are beautiful tools and it never takes much prodding of either one to get someone to lose their cool. (me included)
36 years impressive seriously. However Im going to go out on a limb and say you probably were an Officer, I might be wrong, but, most enlisted guys I know don’t stick around that long. (I sure didn’t) You officers on the other hand love to linger. 90 months thats 7.5 years in combat thats definitely more than me again impressive. No dick measuring here I just have a different view point on what I think is torture and the way I believe war should be fought. With as much time as you have down range, I have to admit Im extremely intrigued in why you have such a liberal point of view. The times I witnessed “enhanced Interrogations” the subject broke within minutes. So its hard for me to listen to all the hype especially on the internet from people who have no Idea what they are talking about nor the enemy we face.
As a regular ass civilian it sure sounds to me like you have no real idea what you’re talking about either. Keep going, try to tell Terry B. his service is somehow less important because he might be an officer. All you’re telling us is that you have no idea what civil discourse means and that you’re both ignorant and judgmental. You obviously believe that anything “liberal” is wrong and that experience somehow always shows “conservatives” to be right, which is possibly the most ignorant thing you could think.
CRH
I’ll admit I’m as prideful as the next guy. Not necessarily my best trait.
Officer, yes eventually. I was an SFC just shy of 10 years when I went to OCS.
Plenty of former enlisted guys go over 30. But it was GWOT that let me continue as long as I did.
I don’t begrudge anyone an opinion that is different than mine…especially on a tough subject like this.
Sometimes the moral lines are blurry and hard to see. But the lines need to be there and people that represent this country need to strive to stay on the correct side of the line. That means all of us.
I may be more “liberal” than you on this subject. But that comes from spending a lot of time in a lot of nasty places dealing with a lot of despicable people. I know that we as Americans are nothing like them.
As a general rule, I don’t want my country to do anything to prisoners that North Korea did to American POWs in the 50s. We are better than that.
When this started in 2001-02 I didn’t appreciate my countrymen being put in a position by their leaders in Washington where they were being encouraged to apply techniques that our nation formally declared to be torture decades ago.
I am certainly not “inexperienced” but I know plenty of guys who have done and seen and lived through a hell of a lot more than I ever did.
POWs like John McCain for example. Politics aside, if he says (and he has) that it is torture…I believe him.
Finally, there is one thing that you have said that I think you should seriously reconsider. War is indeed a “contest of wills”.
But it is not necessarily the most brutal adversary that wins. I could cite a number of historical examples but in the interest of brevity I will refrain.
Bottom line, the willingness to inflict brutality is not an indicator of strength but rather a sign of weakness. People like ISIL are the pussies. Americans are not.
TLB
This issue is a loser. All people involved would do well to admit that we screwed up, reacted emotionally, and did things we believed at the time to be in the best interest of the public. We as a readers and contributors should not muddy the water by taking sides, which would distract from the ultimate goal of getting great information out to the public about new and upcoming gear.
A few things come to mind after reading the above comments.
1) While waterboarding may be considered less harmful than slicing eye lids open, more then 15 people died due to hypothermia due to exposure. Maybe its not as graphic as getting your head lopped off, but dead is dead. A slow agonizing death shivering your ass off is arguably worse then a knife to the throat, but i digress.
2) Very little if ANY (point me in the direction of evidence to the contrary) information acquired by torturing saved any american lives. Its not like we are receiving actionable information from torture sessions anyway. Its been proven that tortured long enough, anybody will say anything. Period.
3) SERE instructors were requested to provide torture techniques to the state department they used training us military forces on what to expect if captured for interrogation purposes. Initially they declined but later relented and passed on their processes. After seeing the damage that was being done to relations in the region and the lack of actionable information received, ultimately all SERE instructors regretted their decision.
Once again…. This issue is a loser. We would do well to steer clear of it.
I’ll weigh in here on something that has always had me chuckling. This notion that only SERE instructors knew about so-called “hard interrogation” techniques. For one thing, many of the Army resistance instructors came from the IC. For another, institutional knowledge was there in the IC. SERE instructors can sleep at night.
Well said SSD and very true.
On a personal note, I can assure you that nothing I have said here means that I don’t have the highest respect for all those IC personnel who were put in a tough position and did their best.
Which I think was the original point of this post.
But that doesn’t mean I give the leadership that put them in that position a pass.
Good discussion BTW.
TLB
Agreed. Actually one of the things I found heartening was the amount of hand wringing and the individuals who quit in protest over what was being done. I believe those individuals showed true moral courage and “put their money where their mouth is” on the issue. I believe most intelligence personnel are intelligent, thoughtful professionals, but stuff liek this unfortunately gives them all a bad name, even though it shouldn’t.
“That is a trap. I offer money, you’ll play the man of honor and take umbrage; I ask you to do what is right and you’ll play the brigand. I have no stomach for games. ” – “The Operative”,Chitwel Ejiofor “Serenity (Firefly)” 2005.
1. There is plenty of kinky people in this country that would pay for that kind of “torture” (S&M and BDSM).
2. Cold water baths – pleeasse – anyone remember the #icebucketchallenge?
3. If torture didnt work it would have been dropped long time ago.
1. Lots of people pay for sex, doesn’t mean that it’s okay to rape people. Consent is a moral factor.
2. Again, consent matters. Also, the ALS ice bucket challenge is short duration.
3. I wouldn’t just guess that, if we’re gonna be torturing people I want to know for sure that it’s worth it.
Much rationalization and very little rationality. I’m disappointed in the readership of this website.