Some interesting concepts came out of the recent Maneuver Center of Excellence Soldier Requirements Division Industry Day. MCOE is based at Fort Benning and combines the Infantry and Armor schools. One of the concepts we found most promising is the Squad Common Optic. It has basically already happened in OEF due to the engagement distances that have made the M68 Close Combat Optic all but useless. The Army is finally coming to grips with the requirement for a single site that can switch from a 1x to 4x, 6x, or even 8x.
For those of you that missed the event, here is a link to the slides.
On a final note, it is very important for our readers to understand that the actual requirements for Soldier Systems come from SRD and not PEO Soldier. Nothing is supposed to be developed without a valid requirement. To put how they are doing into perspective for you, the most current, approved requirement for body armor is dated 1998. Next time you want to shake your fist at PEO Soldier for your equipment, please remember that they are doing one hell of a job considering the lack of current requirements documentation that has been written since the beginning of the war. Granted, not all documentation is outdated, but much of the Soldier-centric stuff is. It’s good to see SRD hosting Industry Days. Unfortunately, much of the emphasis was on lethality.
You know there is already an optic out there that can do that, it’s made by Elcan it’s goes from 1x to 4x and it’s quick as hell to switch and then of course you can get an Eotec holographic and just mount a 3x behind it. So there is no need to have a big long drawn out test here army just buy what’s already available and proven
ELCAN Specter Dr with a Leupold Deltapoint??
Also, there’s a version of ACOG scope with a small red dot mounted atop, you can see it used by 101st Airborne in Afghanistan in the recent video uploaded here 😉
Sounds more like the Leupold Mark 8 CQBSS the marines just adopted it .http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/04/04/leupold-mark-8-1-1-8-x24-cqbss-m-tmr/
I’ve been using my personal TA01NSN ACOG with a JPoint on top for the last 3 years. I’ve used it at ranges and on my recent deployment. A lot of my command loved the optic and has been trying to push to get some. I’ve had some conversations with guys using the SpectreDR and they informed me that they prefer the ACOG set-up better, as the SpectreDR’s internals get rattled around and become less reliable as the weapon is banged around.
They are looking at a single eye piece concept. You look the same place every time, no turkey necking. The Elcan came close but has some POI issues between 1X and 4X. The lever Idea is nice and really beats rotating a magnifier out of line (and into the way of other things…)
Those ACOGs that have the red dot on the top suck, that thing is so hard to see through cause you have to lift your cheek of the stock and then try to find it, it is not ideal for any kind of reflexive cqb contact at all, none of the students that try to use it on our ranges like it at all
The british have decided to use the Elcan spectra 4x optic with a micro-aimpoint on top of that, with the reason being that the guys preferred just moving their head a little to using their left hand to switch the magnification.
Another part of their reasoning was that a 1x optic should ALWAYS be available at any given time, because thats the sight you use to engage targets who suddenly pop up.
So either make a sight that can do both without requiring you to move your hands from the firing positions (AKA what H&K is doing for the G36A3 with button controls featured on the front grip) or you go for the simple = better route and put one on top of the other.
Added advantage is, if one sight breaks, you can still use the other one 😉
SOCOMhas had the ACOG with MRDS on top for years. A with all things gun opinions vary but many do not like having to prairie dog to use the back up site. As an alternative some guys are starting to use the 45 deg offset mounts used with sniper rifles and now gaining popularity in 3 gun circles. With this style of MRDS mount you barrel roll the rifle to the left to expose the backup site.
Delta Point, J Point, or Docter Optic mounted to a picatinny attachment point on the atop the 30mm ring cap of a Recknagel quick release SPR scope mount (3″ offset) which fastens a 2.5-8X Leupold MR/T to a flat top upper. I’d also use an MGM lever attachment to make changing the power on the Leupold a bit easier. I looked at LaRue, and other mount makers to find a scope mount that had a quick release feature that still held the mini red dot in line with the rifle, rather than offset or at a 45 degree angle. I couldnt find such an animal in the US. But “zee Germans” do make such a thing. So I went with Recknagel.
I don’t fancy the 45 degree offset mounts for the mini red dots. Reason is that you have to change your grip on the weapon and roll it, which is unneccessary movement, which increases time to engagement, and the guy with the first rounds on target wins.
So what if you have to lift your head up an inch or two from behind the glass! If he’s so close to you that you have to use a 1 power you better fight like a man, get those rounds off right now.
Since most military forces are typically in the “react” mode – speed is essential. The Army Small Arms Capabilities Based Assessment indicates that Soldiers must identify and incapacitate a threat within a second during close range engagements. I don’t want to increase my reaction time by thinking that I’ve got to roll my weapon on the side to take a shot, change my grip, acquire and fire. At close range you’re just pointing and shooting; your eyeballs are going to be bigger than shit and glued on the threat. Instinctively, the weapon will be held in the same place it always is, and not at a 45 degree angle. You won’t have time to roll it.
In the best instances, scopes that try to do everything in one package end up doing lots of things okay and none of them very good.
I don’t think the ELCAN (Ernst Leitz, Cananda) Spectre is powerful enough at 4X or 6X. Good glass, good product. They can just go 8X and mount a mini dot up top. Bad guys don’t like to get close very often. 52% of engagements in A’stan are 500 meters or more. All the dumb ones are dead.
So as someone that has been out in this shit for the last two years, the Elcan holds up just fine. I’ve had one for almost a year with no major re-zeroing problems. I’m not over the wire every day, but spend a lot of my time playing with locals. My biggest beef is an Elcan is pretty much like tits on a bull on an M4 which is what the few kids out here have them on. There are a few agencies and or companies that are letting their guys throw them on the SCAR heavy. In this format (the 1.5 to 6 model) the round and the scope make a great pairing, and the average contact of 500m isn’t such a big deal.
As to the Offset mounts, there are several solutions being viewed currently. There are several articles that have been written on this site:
https://ssdaily.tempurl.host/2010/12/31/stat-and-lmt-collaborate-on-the-quick-fire-sight-system/
The problem is the “turkey necking” and “prarie dogging”, which the bottom line problem is height over bore. I am no math genius when it come to it, but it does make a difference. The reason the QFSS site works well with the issued mini red dots (dr’s and MRDS), is the sight is on the same plane and HOB (2.5) as the M16A2 iron sight. This mitigates the mathematical calculation needed when making a CQB “anchor” shot. I.E. putting the dot on the top of the head to get a Brain stem hit. If you watch the scene from SWAT when he shoots the hostage in the shoulder…(That is how my guys understand it).
Anyway. I am open to discussion (Big G), and if anyone wants to come to the range at SOFIC and put it to the test… I only shoot for money.
There have been several live contact incidents where the top mount minis have not worked well. The offset is in your face when you are at the high ready with the optic out of you line of site. I can send photos.
OUT
Please forgive Brevity or Grammar.