Holosun

Yes, We Know

Man, “those” guys are fast. Already, someone has knocked off the S&S Precision Plate Frame. It’s not “inspired by”. It’s not an alternative. It’s just a blatant copy of the original, albeit with fake materials including fake ballistic plates. It’s only purpose is to play dress up.

It’s being made in China, the land of “no shame” so it will be difficult to get them to stop. On the other hand, SSD readers can spread that word that this is a ripoff and to boycott the product. If anything the perpetrators are, ironically capitalists, and won’t build something that doesn’t sell.

Thanks guys for the heads up.

89 Responses to “Yes, We Know”

  1. Dr_No says:

    If “it’s (sic) only purpose is to play dress up”, then how exactly does this infringe on S&S’s marketability?

    It seems that your opposition to these types of non-functional copies is more about reinforcing how big your dicks are than protecting copyright.

    If you were actually concerned about getting shot at, rather than playing somewhat more expensive dress up, I imagine the existence of plastic plates wouldn’t bother you nearly as much.

    At least the guys who buy these sort of copies don’t have to develop elaborate fantasies involving home invasions by communist zombies to justify their interests.

    • SSD says:

      I could care less what you want to wear so long as you pay for it. Stealing is stealing, regardless of the reason. Don’t justify a lack of moral compass by saying that “it’s just plastic”. The copy wouldn’t exist if someone else hadn’t invented it in the first place.

      • Dr_No says:

        I must apologize for the severity of my earlier ad hominum. Nonetheless, I maintain my position that products like this are perfectly ethical and fulfill a niche that real steel manufacturers don’t address.

        Ben got to the core of the argument with the differentiation between “replica” and “clone”. The existence of these replica plates, which are identical in style but not function, doesn’t infringe on S&S’s market, and is therefore not theft. If it were theft, every derivative work that profited from the R&D of others (including the articles you write about them, profits from SHOT show, third-party accessories for proprietary products [such as the Seattle Slug], et al ) would fall under the same umbrella.

        A clone, which is has the same form AND function (such as much of the higher-end chinese nylon gear) detracts from the ability of the inventor of a product to market it, and therefore DOES constitute IP theft.

  2. jellydonut says:

    You know the purpose is to sell to airsoft kids, right? Not to rip off people who actually shoot people for a living?

    I mean, the alternative is what does happen sometimes – airsoft kids actually buy the real thing, when the item is in limited production.

    I’d say the latter is worse..

  3. Eric says:

    These were just displayed at SHOT, which means you have pics that the clone market can use to make their copies.

    Yes, it is a clone and worn for a look in Airsoft, but the people at S and S put time, effort, and dollars into designing it.

    And that is the frustrating part for them.

  4. Joe says:

    Wow, that’s insane

  5. Jimmy says:

    It’s amazing you can take this stance when it’s convenient to you. This is the same thing that happened with Ares Gear and Jones Tactical but you’re ok with that.

    • SSD says:

      No, not at all. You just fail to see the bigger picture. S&S Precision filed for a patent. They have established Intellectual Property rights. In the case of the Plate Frame, the fake has even copied the cutouts. It is intended to look exactly like the original. They plan to make money specifically by mimicking the S&S Plate Frame as cheaply as possible.

      The belt issue is not so cut and dried. Granted, the belts are definitely similar and now apparently Viking Tactics also offers a similar belt. The big indicator that this is different, is that no one had ever established IP relevant to the subject or filed any litigation for “copycats”. If the originator didn’t want it copied, he should have protected his idea. Sure, it’s expensive, but if it’s how you are going to make your livelihood, it may well be worth it. Personally, considering that it’s a belt with an extra strip of webbing and an expensive buckle I wouldn’t bother. I’d just innovate in other ways and concentrate on marketing, price, availability and customer service regarding that product.

      Actually, the article in question was written on TF by another writer. He was oblivious to the Ares/Jones blood feud. I had heard about it several years ago but forgotten about it. I guess I don’t move in the circles where this is a big issue. I thought it had all settled down and it was now a matter of which flavor of belt you preferred. Interestingly, neither owner has contacted me reference the belt. So, I’d say they’ve moved on. A lot of times, these issues become the stuff of schoolyard legend with those in the peanut gallery screaming for blood and those in the arena wishing it would go away. Many times I’ve seen companies talk it out but the masses fueling fires all over the internet, years later, never letting the issue go away.

      This business is fueled by “inspiration”. I fully expect to see other plate carriers that are similar to the S&S product. In most cases, they will be different in order to avoid violating S&S Precision’s IP. In a few cases, they may be better. Many will not. That is understandable and everyone in business expects to see that. Hell, how many other websites have sprung up out there that are like SSD?

      • Jimmy says:

        I am very much aware of the back story with the belts so it is you that fails to see the bigger picture. Not filing for a patent does not make Jones’ actions acceptable. The proof is there and it is still very much an active subject with those involved. The fact that Vikings Tactics is also stealing from Ares Gear doesn’t make it any more acceptable.

        • SSD says:

          Have the Ares guy contact me so he can tell his story on here. How does that sound?

          • I see what you mean but... says:

            Is this you admitting you are wrong?

            • SSD says:

              No, this is me hoping to get to the heart of the matter so the peanut gallery can sit down.

          • SSD says:

            So I did a little research…Doesn’t sound like there’s an issue here, except with Jimmy.

            http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2106044761/m/413105973

            Big Jake is the owner of Ares. Rich is the owner of Jones.

            From the thread…

            Big Jake

            Posted 21 August 2009 11:58
            I spoke with Rich, and while I came to a very similar design a year ago, he came to this one ENTIRELY HONESTLY from a different direction.
            Great minds think alike; there was no intellectual dishonesty here, and if he makes these as well as he makes his larger belts, then his customers will be very happy with them.

            Thanks for the conversation, Rich. 

  6. Swiat34 says:

    And shame on those companies that make those plastic MICH, ACH and PASGT helmets for kids too? The copy isn’t made of the same high quality materials and not intended to replace the original. Now if the were advertising to replace the original for actual tactical uses, THAT would be a serious issue. Shame on Classic Army for making Airsoft guns that look exactly like the real ones? This is trivial but only because these ‘knock-offs’ are made as toys.

    • SSD says:

      I can tell you most airsoft companies pay royalties to the companies they copy. In the case of helmets, the items you named are US Government designs. Generally, we consider those “fair game”.

      • Swiat34 says:

        They’re still made by a private company. The government doesn’t make anything. They buy and issue products made by private companies. Suddenly this ‘theft’ story isn’t so black and white now is it? S&S Precision’s Plate Frame is for carrying ballistic plates into harms way and it’s made for that. The Chinese Airsoft toy is only made to hold plastic fake plates for use by kids playing a game and it’s made accordingly. They aren’t selling in the same market nor the saw kinds if people! If you wanted to go ‘play guns’ in the back yard with your kid, would you spend $500 on a real one or $40 on a plastic toy? And the other way around; if you were going to Afghanistan would you buy a $40 plastic you or a $500 armor carrier?

        • SSD says:

          Actually, the Government does make things but that’s another story altogether. The private companies that make the various general issue helmets you named don’t own the designs. They are not in a position to sue anyone unless someone is making products with their markings on them and selling them as their products. Particularly if they are supposed to be life saving equipment, but aren’t built to spec. This does happen.

          Unfortunately, thanks to the unscrupulous, counterfeit equipment makes its way into the supply chain all too often.

          You really don’t know what you’re talking about at all.

          I find it hard to believe that you really think it is ok for these people to steal. And, you came out here in public and try to justify this position. If someone wants to copy something, just pay for the privilege.

      • charlie says:

        Admin is right. A few years ago H&K went around suing US airsoft retailers for Trade and Dress because they couldn’t get to the chinese manufacturers. Pretty much every one of them agreed to stop selling H&K airsoft copies online and H&K was nice enough to let the stores sell their remaining stock in store if that was an option for the store. Umarex worked out a licensing deal with H&K and proceeded to make their own airsoft guns and also licensed the trademark further with H&K’s approval to established airsoft brands.

        • James Olsen says:

          Umarex MAKES NOTHING, all Umarex does is slap on some terrible HK trademarks and claims they are original, its not much better really

      • mcantu says:

        true. a while back Lockheed wanted to after video game companies that made F-22 flight sims. they said that the name ‘F-22’ and the shape of the plane were their IP. turns out that since they were paid with public funds, they couldnt claim those as their own…

  7. Lasse says:

    They are stealing someone else’s design, it doesn’t matter who it’s for.

    If I make Rolex copies, and only intend to sell them to kids and poor people, do you think Rolex would be OK with that? Hell fucking no.

  8. Alan says:

    I hazard to guess that the people who are okay with the design theft are in fact the very people who’ll be buying the items?

    Theft is theft… no way to rationalize it.

  9. Megalomaniac says:

    Okay lets look at this way, I am both an Airsofter and an Avid Shooter, when I play airsoft I like to run as light as possible, but I also like to be cost effective, I evaluate a choice of gear based on a cost/value ratio, for my use and purpose the clone being only 82USD vs the S&S being 380USD, the clone most likely will serve my purpose, and S&S’ sales will not be harmed (maybe even enhanced by perhaps one or two because if you are willing to shell out 380 for a bare carrier, you most likely can afford to buy an 80 clone to try out) because it is a different market from S&S’ target.

    Think of it this way if a factory in china started making clone Corvettes except that they were made out of cheaper materials and electric powered with a top speed of 10mph downhill with a tailwind, would that effect the sales of the Corvette? Would someone looking for a performance vehicle settle for a poorly preforming knock-off?

    • SSD says:

      So you think it’s perfectly OK for someone else to profit completely from S&S Precision’s hard work? You don’t think that S&S should get something for coming up with that design? You don’t think that it should be up to S&S to decide who they should license their IP to?

      Where do you think all of these good ideas come from? They are investments in money and time (which is money). The companies that produce counterfeits are leeches and suck the life blood from any industry. Those people you enrich when you purchase their counterfeits don’t have any responsibility to you or your economy or your society. They aren’t paying American workers. They aren’t paying taxes. They aren’t ensuring their products are safe.

      You look at a pricetag and make your purchase based on that. This exact mentality is why the US manufacturing base moved overseas. So people could buy 6 pair of tubesocks for $5.

    • Ex-St. Paul Resident says:

      If a factory in China started making clone Corvette’s that are sold under the Corvette monicker and tags, then Chevy would immediately attempt to stop/interrupt production of the stolen IP. You analogy is invalid.

  10. Jay says:

    wow…215 Gear was right about Airsofters.

    Stealing is stealing. Then again, that’s what Airsoft is all about, pretending to be something that you’re not.

    • SSD says:

      It’s not about airsofters. It’s about thieves.

    • I see what you mean but... says:

      Hell yeah they were. It’s all airsofters defending this crap.

      • Long John says:

        I am a huge airsofter and a real steel owner. When I first started airsofting, I bought a $130 CIRAS vest that was a a near perfect knockoff of an Eagle vest. I did not know anything about brands or anything like that at the time. All I saw was the price and the product. I have had the vest for more than 2 years, and have used it a lot, and it still looks new.

        I guess what I am trying to say is that the Chinese try to get their knockoffs to be exactly like the real thing that they are copying.

        I saw the plate frame being advertised online and showed a friend of mine who is also into tactical gear, and he told me that he saw the real thing at Shot Show. I searched Google to find the real deal, and found that SS is the company with the brain who took the time to engineer the beautiful piece of gear. I don’t know about any of you trolls, but if you have ever created a design (one that you spent countless hours or days on) copied or stolen by somebody, you should know that the feeling is sickening. Knowing that they are going to sell a knockoff of something you spent tons of time and money on just worsens that feeling.

        I am an American, born and raised in California. I have a shitty job at a retail store. It does not pay that well, but whenever I am going to buy something, I always look to see if I am getting the original design.

        Remember those 2-wheeled skateboards named “Wave Board”? Well my friend’s uncle invented it, and he spent a long ass time and lots of money developing and engineering it. A year or two after it hit retail stores, the Chinese started to make cheap knockoffs of it, such as the “Rip Stick”. Well, the Wave Board ended up costing a lot more than the crappy Rip Sticks, but people still bought/buy them due to the price.

        Anyway, Soldier Systems should have the world-wide right to dismantle any person or company that attempts to copy their designs. If you like the design of something, support the people who designed it by buying the original.

        Nuff said.

    • noble6 says:

      really? I just received my 215 gear belt for my airsoft, so I guess my money went to the wrong guy then and I just made them 100 dollar richer

  11. Eric says:

    Gee, you airsofters are so quick to get your panties into a wad on this website. Man up and stop being so godamn sensitive to everything that isnt about you yet you make it about you. Go join the fucking military already.
    Secondly, how many dickheads are gonna buy these copies and go straight to ebay to pass them off as the real deal and rip people off? You know who you are!

    • Long John says:

      You raised another excellent point. With all of these knockoffs in the world of many different designs and products, it is nearly impossible to be sure you are actually buying a legit product. I remember seeing “ESS” Turbo Fan goggles on eBay for the price of ESS Turbo Fan goggles, but they were not true ESS goggles. Instead of the ESS logo above the nose, there was nothing. Just flat plastic. It was a knockoff. I remember seeing that he had sold tons of them.

      If you support the Chinese, you are unpatriotic and are a disgrace to your country. Man up, save up, and buy the real thing.

  12. Ben says:

    Whilst I’m completely against counterfeit goods, I think it’s important to distinguish between “cloned” or “stolen IP” and “replica” goods.

    The only similarity between the product in question and the S&S item is the aesthetic. I don’t actually think the mock plates are even removable and it doesn’t actually share any practical use with the original. Basically, it is a non-functioning 1:1 model of the S&S product.

    Of course, the best channel to go down would be to seek official replica licensing from S&S, but can you see this happening in reality?

    As somebody mentioned above, the people that buy this would never at any point have considered buying a real armour carrier and therefore all S&S have got from this deal is a few more mentions and another spot in the limelight, both positive. We likely never see the S&S product in use in a real life situation.

  13. I see what you mean but... says:

    I see what’s going on here. You got a bunch of fuckers that have been called out for supporting theft and now they feel bad about their shitty actions. Instead of manning up, they’ve decided they are going to come up with any lame assed excuse possible to justify their pathetic life paths.

    Way to go enablers.

  14. Justin says:

    I’m agreeing with SSD and I don’t understand why so many people on here are getting their panties in a twist. these chinese companies should not be copying Gear products in general. As an airsofter and avid outdoors man and supporter of our military It’s wrong to support these companies that are stealing from these American companies in the name of “toys” Man up and spend a little more money and get the real thing. Oh you have to wait? So what. It’s always going to be worth it especially when a lot of real gear doesn’t lose value after lots of use. Just check ebay prices of Eagle stuff.

    Seriously this is why gear companies HATE airsofters. Because we’re constantly supporting not only Chinese companies, but them ripping unique designs with trade marks on them that have the possibility of getting into our warriors hands and getting them killed.

    I apologize if that was all TL;DR

  15. Ruvon says:

    Is it just me, or are the defense contract corporate machine wannabe’s more elitist than a bunch of geardo airsofters that snob their noses at kids using knock off airsoft kit?

    Why don’t you guys wake up and smell the shite your shoveling? Stead of going through and calling out supposed thieves and such, why don’t you do something constructive and figure out a way to go to a chinese company and say “Hey we understand these fag boy airsofting kids can’t afford our shit, here’s a cheap licence to do it and bang at it!”

    And another thing, directed at 21fail and other airsoft hating homophopes:
    Alot of us posers go on to either A. become real steel operators, B. all ready have done it C. Have great name recognition.
    Someday they may end up not buying from some company that’s duping everyone that their shite is THE kit for whatever sandbox they get put in.
    I mean look at some of the designs..what’s innovative about putting 2 pieces of Kydex into a shaper and bango the latest and greatest?
    Shoot man, I’ve been using SERPA brand for at least 5 years I am surely not going to put a vital piece of gear at risk cause someone go the bright idea to make mag pouches out of a rubber band, especially someone who has shady business practices to cheat for contracts, like putting the wife down as CEO.
    I do also want to add one thing, I use real steel (LBT 1961, Crye Multicam, EO Tech optics) when I roll out because I cannot accept failure in any of my gear.

    Yes we do know….

  16. Dan says:

    So the thing about making copies is that it is only a bad thing from the inventors perspective if it affects revenues derived from that specific brand or product, and if the fakes are passed off as the real thing. So things like fake rolexes and Armani suits passed off as the real thing or fake pharmaceuticals etc. are obvious.

    As for toy helmets, guns and toy rigs etc., especially if they are marked as replicas or toys…. Well… I don’t see the problem there. Sure there are a lot of licensed airsoft replica guns, but there are also a lot of non licensed ones with minor differences or ones that carry no trades and bear different names all together. Sure HK can go around suing people in order to get extra revenues from royalties and to do some “brand management”, but not all companies have the sale and war chest to do that.

    But again, if it’s toys we are talking about errrr….. Well… And if they are not being passed off as the real thing… And it’s obvious they are not the real thing… Then is it really worth all the fuss?

    Imagine a Roman Centurion from ages past, upon seeing a “barbarian” kid on the street playing with a well carved replica of a Gladius Sword (pretending to be a centurion in obvus admiration) gets all pissed off and says to the kid, “hey you can’t do that…that’s copyrighted! Off with your head!”

    Ok enough with the historical analogies but it’s a toy man!

    • I see what you mean but... says:

      You’re absolutely right. Why the hell should someone bother inventing anything? I mean, it’s ok that people steal ideas right? Hell, with your kind of an attitude, your old lady probably replaced you with a dildo. It’s just a toy man!

    • noble6 says:

      I agreed, but the all thing fussed about is the theft of ideas and the patent of their products’ design. Unfortunately “just a toy” excuse is not acceptable in any business norms especially for the big corporates in this case S&S precision.

      I believe what SSD, and several other people trying to express is, it is JUST NOT RIGHT for stealing other people ideas / design of a product especially the one that is not even come out to the general market yet. I believe there might be a bit different story and arguments if the copy is released AFTER the actual product is out in the market and labeled as replica and the intended use of the copy is no more than a toy. And it is still not even right as long as they are not paying royalty / franchise / licensing fee for the product.

      And I want to say to all of people who read and participate in this post, please don’t being judgmental about airsofters and generalized them as being a thief a fraud or whatsoever, it is just wrong and very uncivil to accuse them that way. Please be open minded about this and keep it civil.

  17. This thread went strangely askew and part of it seems to be a fundamental disagreement over the basic argument. Whether or not airsofters are whining (and I don’t think it’s fair to say they are) or the copies are cheap or anything else…theft of an idea is still theft. That’s the bottom line…and as for all the Ares vs. Jones bullshit, if the guy FROM ARES says he’s okay with it, what’s up with all the angst on his behalf? Honestly, I expect more from the average reader of this daily than some of the misinformed or perhaps misguided stuff I’ve seen spewed out here. If you admire something well enough to make a copy of it, then ask their permission. LOTS of people do it, with LOTS of different products. They don’t make TOY corvettes without permission and license from Chevy. Same thing should apply across the spectrum, and if someone really is making blatant knock-offs then they should absolutely called on it UNTIL the deal is reconciled. So, for instance, I have no issue with making a fuss of Ares vs. Jones, until we hear from the parties involved are done with the argument. At that point throwing accusations around is just slanderous and stupid. I think it’s been made pretty clear that anyone believing they have a grievance in this industry are welcome to voice an opinion on here. Some may have perfectly valid reasons to do so (or not to do so), but I think it’s pretty presumptuous (if perfectly well intentioned) to speak on their behalf.

  18. .308 says:

    copying a product or reproducing a different variant of a product is how things go…that’s business.. Deal with it, IT HAPPENS… not worth crying every time it happens and labeling a nation as “no shame” or people as “thieves”. If that is the case this industry and all others are full of no shame thieves making excellent products.. less tears!

    • SSD says:

      Not everyone in China is a thief, and I didn’t say that so dont put words in my mouth. There is one specific company that has ripped off numerous companies in the tactical industry. and they are behind this one as well.

      As for China being a country of no shame, try and get a patent violator in that country to cease and desist. Good luck. There is no shame in their game. There are many companies there that are more than happy to profit from the hard work of others. You’ll see no relief in the form of enforcement.

      Yes, it happens, but there’s no reason to pretend that it doesn’t happen either.

      Sometimes I write about stuff just to see who will come out in defense of thievery. It can be very revealing.

      • noble6 says:

        it is because of the China government is not restricting on the industry on such law to prevent them producing and selling copies, unless the original manufacturer have registering their products for international patent rights, but the manufacturer itself still can get away by making a slight change on the design and claim the product as their own or label them as a different brand. But on the other side, the country needs to feed their more than 1 billion people, so there are some things to see through in this case

  19. SSD says:

    The irony in all of this is that nowhere in the post is the term airsoft ever mentioned. For some reason, the airsoft community decided to self identify and come out overwhelmingly on the side of theft.

    Could someone explain why that happened?

    • noble6 says:

      i do play airsoft, i own and purchase both of the real stuffs and replicas, but the purchase I made is mostly based on my need first and money availability second. I always try to get the real one as they are better in quality and higher resale value and try to not make a purchase for a replica if I don’t have the money . I would love to get my hand on the Ops Core ballistic helmet or Crye Airframe helmet, but they are so expensive and why the hell do I need a ballistic helmet for a wargame? so I get a replica instead, I know I am not proud of the purchase but with that the rest 1000 dollar i can save that’s all I can do right now and I am happy with those decision.

      But I don’t really think the industry itself will suffer in this because the main purpose of the originator’s product is not for airsoft, unless those copy manufacturer is start making the same design with ballistic function, they may start to worry.

      And I really appreciate to see for any airsoft gears manufacturer if they come out with their own design for airsoft intended purpose instead of stealing design that’s already out there, or at least they can ask for a license for them and pay some royalties, like Magpul did to Magpul PTS or HK with Umarex

    • Justin says:

      Hey SSD. I would say that being an avid Airsofter for over 5 years I can honestly say that a GOOD percentage of airsofters are complete idiots and the reason why these companies thrive, and why “real steal high speed operators” Hate our guts. Because we are “fags” who like to own gear. Yet I still enjoy playing a good game of airsoft when that happens. Do I wish that the hate against us would stop? Yes. Will it? No.

    • Ben says:

      I think the reason for this is that it’s quite clearly aimed at the airsoft market. In fact, all of the retailers that sell this product are AIRSOFT retailers. They are not products that are leaking into the “real” tactical kit pool and I very much doubt that anyone would even accidentally purchase one of this particular item in error.

      Granted, there are some other items that perform very similarly to the legitimate product, even as well as, but they are infringing on copyright and as an airsofter that is professionally involved in the industry, I would absolutely denounce these.

      As I mentioned before, there is a chasm of difference between “cloned” products and “replica” products.

  20. Jimmy says:

    Why did you turn off the reply function on our conversation? If you’re going to call someone out at least give that person the opportunity to respond.

    • SSD says:

      What are you talking about? You just replied didn’t you?

      • Jimmy says:

        Don’t be ridiculous, on the original conversation. Read the following threads and you can see where RJ clearly took the design idea from Jake Sebens. Either way, the info is there. Whatever you choose to do with it is your prerogative.

        http://www.aresgear.com/Jones%20Tactical/Jones%20Theft%20Record%201.php.htm

        http://www.aresgear.com/Jones%20Tactical/Jones%20Theft%20Record%202.php.htm

        http://www.aresgear.com/Jones%20Tactical/Jones%20Theft%20Record%203.php.htm

        • SSD says:

          I read what you posted. Nowhere does it reference either company. Additionally, it was written BEFORE the Lightfighter post where the owner of Ares says that the owner of Jones didn’t knock him off. What’s your game here?

          All you’ve done is shown that you can’t figure out how to post, that you’ve hijacked a post about something completely different and that you are a shit stirrer.

          • SSD says:

            ALCON…I have spoken to the owner of Ares about this issue. He has amended his lightfighter post to add

            Big Jake
            Posted 21 August 2009 11:58

            I spoke with Rich, and while I came to a very similar design a year ago, he came to this one ENTIRELY HONESTLY from a different direction.

            Great minds think alike; there was no intellectual dishonesty here, and if he makes these as well as he makes his larger belts, then his customers will be very happy with them.

            Thanks for the conversation, Rich.

            EDIT – AFTER I made this post, new information was brought back to my attention; Rich knew perfectly well that I was making belts, AND what they looked like, because he’d asked for photos of them when I released them on DIY Tactical in 2007. Snapshots of that thread are available upon request.

            This message has been edited. Last edited by: Big Jake, 06 February 2012 09:03

            That’s fair enough. He has spoken with me about his point of view and I understand and respect that. He has also taken steps to update his position publicly on the matter. It seems that he has created quite a trend in the world of belts with yet another company entering the market for a total of four. While I am sure that Ares is not happy about the competition their success has created, they are at peace with it and are working to constantly improve their product line. The owner of Ares is very confident of his product and I like that; a lot. We had a frank discussion about legal and moral right and wrong and we see eye to eye on that as well. Legally, no one has done anything wrong in producing other belts. Morally? Therein lies the rub.

  21. Long John says:

    Look at it this way: when you are shopping for groceries, do you buy Fruit Loops, or do you buy Silly Circles?

  22. Chris says:

    Fascinating.

    Companies with resources deserve protection from overseas entities creating non-functional replicas while smaller companies without resources who get ripped off by competitors in the same market space don’t rate the same consideration.

    Just another day in the industry and it’s all fun and games ’till it happens to you.

    Competition of any kind isn’t a threat and that’s not what’s happening here. Will S&S lose any customers over this? Will it have any financial impact on the company or it’s ability to serve it’s customers? Come back and make a big deal out of this when that happens.

    • SSD says:

      Not sure how big you think S&S is, but an industry giant they ain’t. S&S Precision is a small family business. They employ locals and nobody over there is living like a rockstar.

      I didn’t realize you were doing so well that it wouldn’t matter to you if you were ripped off.

      • Munkey says:

        After reading a few of your posts I like this one the most. Back in the day some guy invented tube socks… and now their everywhere!

        Some “tiny” company called S&S devised a bunch of military “crap” for a insurgency that’s almost over. In the next 25 years better stuff will come out every day. Our military isn’t going to invest in a bunch of these laughable plate carriers, so why does it matter?

        The only kind of people I can even see wearing these are airsofters and “Wannnabe military hardcore tactical shooters” which are totally better than airsofters just because they only shoot steel and not both.

        • SSD says:

          It matters because in America we value innovation. The problem with your analogy is that someone actually invented how to produce tube socks and they made machines to do it. Now everybody does it because someone produced a machine to knit socks quickly and efficiently.

          The most important aspect of the S&S Precision Plate Frame is that no one had ever made a plate carrier like that before. They didn’t design so that another company could make money off of it by building toy copies. Instead, they built it for a very specific set of real world users. My guess, by the tenor of your comment is that you aren’t one of those users.

          • Munkey says:

            I see where your getting at and I agree, however…

            America doesn’t value innovation. We’re the consumers driving the desire to replicate. We throw away more things than we re-use. We let China do this, this is our government paying them to make it all for us in the first place.

            If we want to solve the problem, we need to invade China or stress strict foreign trade regulations. The latter is the only option, which will decide on our severely broken government of investor pigs, and the next tool-bag they will use in the Presidency.

            I’m all for small businesses and against immigrants breaking our country, it’s wrong, and until we vote against it, we will get boned in the rear.

  23. .308 says:

    yes America values innovation, America used to be a nation that built everything.. not anymore. The second largest company in the world cannot use American innovation.. Apple turns to China.. why? because they have the resources, manpower and “innovation” that America does not.. because they can crank out thousands of industrial engineers in weeks as opposed to months.. deal with it, industry is built on copy and reproduction.. wave your flag all you want, if you can’t compete, go home and play with your kids… If these companies can sue I don’t blame them.. every precaution should be taken to protect IP, but these things will ALWAYS happen when you do not have a propitiatory product! Want something the Chinese cannot copy? Develop it.. software perhaps..sick of hearing complaints about it on this board…. I am happy that you call these things to attention, but deal with the fact that it happens, don’t be shocked or disgusted.

    • I see what you mean but... says:

      Dude, anything that can be made can be copied. The point of this whole thing is that S&S has a proprietary product. They were copied, specifically to look the same.

      • Roecar says:

        A very high percentage of any kind of Industrial Design done here in the US is done prominently by either American, European, or Western educated Asians designers. Ask any reputable designer and they will list schools based in the US and Europe where ALL of the top designers and designs in the world come from.

        For the moment China has no capability to produce any serious Industrial Design until they get over the phase of see it, copy it, sell it. China has NO real Industrial Designers.

        • noble6 says:

          yes they do lack of real innovators, you can always push the excuses that American made is far more superior than China argument, but the fact is, it is EXPENSIVE to produce everything made in America, and if you want to make things that will fulfill the large scale of mass production, I don’t think it will be affordable and the delivery time to the market will be slow. While China offers a far more cheaper production cost and fast delivery time with a reasonable quality.

          So the question is, will all American workers will be willing to lower their fare to compete the China workers, or US govt will impose a tax free for those workers. I don’t think so!

          I posted this earlier, China is currently populated with over 1 billion people, so they do what they have to do to make their people live.

    • Crate Kicker 7 says:

      Yes, that is why Foxconn employee’s threatened to commit mass suicide, because they are highly skilled and adequately compensated for the work they do. The reason china is where it is at is far more complex then your simple statement.

    • noble6 says:

      even Cordura material is made in China, along with that Cordura printed in Multicam, ATACS, AOR etc2, that are used by American gears manufacturers. Shocked?? I think some of you already know it

      Remember that SSD posted about nylon material shortage while ago? apparently DuPont moved all the nylon manufacturing to China on full scale, includes the the “starting to fame” 500D and 330D cordura. before that China factory used to be only manufacturing the plain fabric while the coloring and printing the pattern done in America. so I can say that if there is a label written on the gear “Whole Made in America” is entirely bullshit.

  24. SGT Rock says:

    Stealing someone elses design = stealing their intellectual property rights. Plain and simple. That’s why I never buy anything made in China and never buy anything that’s not Berry Compliant. If you do either you’re possibly giving your money to a communist aggressor nation.

  25. Joe says:

    I think that SSD is more upset about the principle of Intellectual property theft rather than the company being hurt by the presence of pirate knockoffs, because that’s clearly not the case.

    For one thing, it’s permanently stuck to fake plates, so they’re not losing any potential sales to real trigger pullers.

    They’re also not losing sales to airsoft kiddies because they can’t afford to pay over $1000 for a genuine article with plates.

    This is the flaw in the thinking about piracy: That every sale of a counterfeit is a lost potential sale of the real thing. This makes 2 bad assumptions:
    1. The buyer is able to pay the asking price for the real thing.
    2. The buyer is WILLING to pay the price you’re selling it for.

    In this case, both are wrong, airsoft kid wants’ to look like a high speed unlimited budget SpecOps ninja, all on a paper route budget. He was never a customer in the first place.

  26. Crate Kicker 7 says:

    And then some people wander about the state of our country and why it is where it is.
    It boils down to this, either you have morals or you don’t. All the rest is a smoke screen.
    If you have morals, you see this incident and others like it clearly for what it is, theft.
    If you don’t have morals, then you will throw out the “yeah, but” or “capitalists bad” or some other neanderthal string of words to excuse morally corrupt words and deeds.

    • .308 says:

      some people have moral issues with enforcing political policy on foreign lands through armed occupation and combat under the banners of freedom, democracy, liberation and god.

      Others have moral issues with Chinese copying a plate carrier.. Yes, extreme debate.. appalling the lack of morality!

      • Crate Kicker 7 says:

        Your sarcasm is expected. But your statement tries to divide the two issues, when really they are the same. But this is neither the time nor the place. This thread was concerning the theft of someones original IP.

      • I see what you mean but... says:

        I don’t have any issues with that. What are you? A fucking communist? Why are you even here? Fucking troll.

  27. Joe says:

    Before you make another posturing moral outrage post, ask yourself, ” How many MP3’s do I have on my computer?”

    Guess what, the morals of the country are changing back to what they were in the founding. USA was originally a consumer of innovation from England and the industrial revolution was fueled in copyright and patent theft. Just like China’s. We didn’t care until we wanted to make money on ideas too.

    The problem is that it doen’t work too well in a gobal economy if you can’t enforce it globally.

  28. Devil's Advocate says:

    Fact 1 – Airsoft demands realism.

    Fact 2 – A vast majority of airsoft players live outside the US and can find it quite difficult to buy original products (customs, companies not selling to civilian market…)

    Fact 3 – China will always look for oppertunities to make a quck buck, why develop your own products when you can copy something that has aready proven itself commercially sucessful.

    Fact 4 – Unfortunately the average joe will always compromise his principles when it suits him, form airsoft players “settling” for fake gear because they can’t get hold of the original, to soldiers in the “Sand Box” picking up a few copy DVD’s and other creature comforts.(http://www.stripes.com/news/in-iraq-counterfeit-items-sold-at-exchanges-1.18251)

    Result – These four facts create a robust counterfeit market.

    Solution – Legally persuing offending factories is futile but copying is not something that is going to stop so the only real avenue for damage control is giving the airsoft community what it wants – a fully licensed, realistic, non functional/non Milspec reproduction of the original design.

    Pros – The issue for airsoft players is that as much as they would love to get an original product, they can neither afford the cost or reqiure the performance of the original, the only other alternative is a considerably cheaper “fake” version. A fully licensed replica at a more affordable price will both help generate income from and entirely new market and if the idea was adopted industry wide (which adready seems to be happening) the Chines factories will have a much smaller piece of the pie.

    Cons – would require the original company to presue a market it may have no interest in catering to or being assosiated with and may have concerns about being perceived as “selling out” in the eyes of it’s target market ie. the military community.

    Conclusion – The sooner the military community realizes that when they retire, the next generation of warfighters – the good men and women that will be protecting THEIR rights and freedoms will be TODAY’s airsoft players… and eventually stop refering to them as “faggots” and “pussies” and even stop being a part of the problem and become a part of the solution by helping to educate and guide them, then perhaps the issue of licensing to the airsoft community will not be such an issue.

    • SSD says:

      That’s a pretty good analysis but it’s important to remember that, while MilSim is a market factor, they are not THE market. I do attempt to treat readers who participate in that pursuit with respect but to be very blunt, I am extremely unimpressed with the poor representation displayed by that community over the last few days here on SSD.

      When you are young, inexperienced, and immature it’s best to just sit back and learn than to tell people how things should be. If you don’t make a living based on hard work and the development of ideas into products and jobs then don’t come in here and tell those that do that it is ok to steal from them.

      And finally, while I love interacting with my international readership I am an American and this is primarily an American site. Don’t come in here and tell me how much my country sucks or how our foreign policy is ruining the world. Chances are damned good that any freedoms you may enjoy were in one way or another made possible, at least in part, through the benevolence of these United States.

      • carbine44 says:

        You are laughable SSD. I love how you will only post replies that stroke your own ego instead of letting your site viewers post their TRUE feelings on this subject.

        I am an insignificant piss ant and I am the same guy as Hilarious. I have to make up extra log ins so it seems like lots of people agree with me. I live in my mom’s basement in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. My email addresses are [email protected] and [email protected].

  29. Hilarious says:

    Hey SSD….Feel free to tell everyone you know to send me hate mail

    [email protected] and [email protected]

    I am a racist and a homophobe. Please punish me.

  30. Ted S says:

    Shouldn’t S&S be worrying about this? Not Soldier Systems. SSD needs to stop butting in and let S&S handle their own legal battles. Yeesh.