I like the new look! It’s now “A page dedicated to the Scout Snipers of the United States Marine Corps & those who support them.” Unfortunately, their description still has the drivel over the meaning of Sig Runes. Too bad they wanted to use the Nazi SS insignia but pretend it was something else. However, they are slowly but surely cleaning up their act.
www.facebook.com/MarineCorpsSS
Tags: USMC Scout Snipers
Hey giant dorks at SS.. I mean Soldier Systems. This is old symbolism that has been used a long time by the Marine Scout Sniper community. This was used back when Marine Snipers were the only ones that counted. When I was in the Corps, Navy Seals, Army Sniper Instructors, SAS, IDF etc. etc. went through Marine Scout Sniper school and no one complained then. Now in the politically correct world without secrecy we have to change? Now restrictions are put on the military man while civilians can bad mouth the current President w/o repercussion? BS.
I cannot fathom how you can justify identifying with a group that committed genocide. You do realize what the Nazi SS was responsible for don’t you?
If standing for right is being a dork, then that’s me. You go off with the cool kids and Sieg heil each other ok?
First let me say I do not support the Nazi party or ideals. I understand your excitement of reporting on a military based private Facebook page but… three posts creating drama where there doesn’t need to be? I do understand how one could misinterpret the message the SS logo sends but this logo has been used for 30 years by Marine Sniper units. I know the length of time the logo was used with out notice doesn’t make it right. I do have a problem with the softening of the military due to the reporting of the media will have a long term negative outcome. I honestly hope I didn’t offend anyone, just giving my POV.
“Hey giant dorks at SS.. I mean Soldier Systems.”
—-followed by—-
“I honestly hope I didn’t offend anyone…”
Not to kick you while you’re down, but seriously… Did you start hoping to not offend anyone AFTER you called a bunch of people dorks? Please tell me you didn’t call Kerry a Flip Flopper back in ’04.
Haha, Ash. I’m not even close to down. I did mean the dorks part I mean offending people about the Nazi / SS shit. Is dork offensive now? I was making light of a serious situation.
Ya know, we had this thing called slavery in this country for hundreds of years. Eventually, as a society we realized it was wrong. We stopped doing it. Should we have kept doing it because we had done it for a long time? No, because it was wrong.
Naturally, there were and continue to be some who cling to those ante-bellum ways. They are wrong and I’d hope you’d agree. If you can work that one out then you should be able to drop Nazi paraphernalia like a hot potato.
I think you meant it to be offensive because you said it to be snarky. You were upset that people didn’t agree with you, you pulled a name from the 3rd grade hat, you (virtually) yelled it out.
You started snarky, so, yeah, coming to a site and calling everyone “dorks” is mildly (very mildly) offensive, but it’s more a sign that you can’t make up your mind, can’t critically consider a situation, and flip-flop on issues.
The Swastika was used for peaceful purposes long before hulter and his cronies decided to use it to symbolize their profoundly ignorant ideology.
That doesn’t mean doesn’t mean it’s appropriate or prudent to use it to represent anything these days. These symbols have been irreversibly tarnished for the foreseeable future.
But go ahead and use them, and after you lose your job and become completely ostrizided from civilized and modern society let me know if you still think it was worth it….
Cav, To me the swastika is a completely different issue since it was taken by the Nazis from Buddhism I think? I still see that inverted logo in some Buddhist vegetarian restaurants and am not upset by this at all though I am sure some people give them shit too.
Are you trying to tell me that you can’t work this one out? You can’t see any difference here?
“I still see that inverted logo in some Buddhist vegetarian restaurants”
Love it… Spend much time in Buddhist vegetarian restaurants?
Dude, you’re trying to defend the indefensible… Just love your country and don’t stand up for ignorance. Stop arguing JUST to argue. Would you blink if all your Black buddies asked someone to remove a burning cross patch from their uniform? Or if one of your vegetarian Buddhist Tibetan-restaurant-owning pals requested that the PRC flag not be hung from their wall by a customer who thinks China is just dandy?
Find something truly honorable… Defend that.
Oh and for the record, coming to a blog to venture your feeble minded frustration is profoundly dorkish.
Unless you think any part of the National Socialist agenda was OK, such as ethnic cleansing, murdering American POW’s, eugenics programs, or human experimentation that made the world cringe, then you may want to find something that’s actually honorable to defend.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again:
You know, this isn’t ONLY a PR/PC issue.
THIS IS A MORALE/LOYALTY ISSUE.
Just curious… When did they start using it that logo? (if anyone knows)
The 1930s
Well Played
I know plenty of Marines and not one I have talked to is ok with this, it is indefensible. Marinefo is off base
I think they should just rename it from scout sniper to something else. Then no more SS. I’m thinking rapid acquisition precision engagers. Surely no offensive symbology can come from that!
HA! Man, sooo wrong!
Not a bad idea if the Marines can’t fix the problem.
You know, I actually had respect for Marines and their “elite” “SS”. I truly did. My respect for them even crossed the intra-service rivalry I was a part of. But this debacle has not only caused me to loose respect for this SS community, but put a sour taste in my mouth for all Marines. It shows how this proud branch cannot police up these senseless “hogs” or maybe it’s all just this single marine’s fault, who choose to identify with a symbol and a group who is responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians and OUR FATHERS AND GRANDFATHERS! More like Semper Don’t now because of these too for school “SS” bunch who cannot make the connection.
Meant to say to cool for school at the end. Tried to type on a small keyboard with failing eyes.
Do you guys have any idea how many Black, Hispanic/ Latino, Asian, native American and Jewish scout snipers have his brand or tattoo? I guess 30 years ago a bunch of Marines desided to take one of the most feared and hated MILITARY units in history and make it theirs. If you think we don’t come up with a stupid idea and make it stick, go hangout at the grunt barracks this Friday. Bad call? Yes. Are some Snipers going to have a hard time letting go, having felt unit pride and pride on the rifle for so long? Yes. The USMC isn’t a bunch of boyscouts, and we aren’t stocked full of Harvard grads either. This is the tip of the iceberg for “inappropriate behavior” over the last ten years of shooting Americas enemies in the face. I’m done following these posts. But I’ll leave you with this who did that scumbag hitler love? The roman empire. How many gear companies, training groups and weapon projects are named in Roman Glory? It’s a good thing a Gladius never killed a single innocent person, a roman legion never raped and burned a village or conquered a peaceful land and tryed to wipe them off the face of the earth.
Once again, “hey, everybody does it so it’s ok if we do.” I’ve seen a couple of guys take ownership of this and everyone else who was involved or on the periphery is all about rationalizing piss poor behavior. No wonder we have such discipline problems. No one wants to say, “This is wrong. We should stop.” Why? Doesn’t the Marine Corps value responsibility? The bottom line is that the symbol is unacceptable to the Marine Corps, America and pretty much everyone else for that matter. Unfortunately, there are those that want to hurt the reputation of one of America’s most trusted institutions, the Marine Corps because they aren’t mature enough to accept the world for what it is. The worst part about this is that those men are Marines. Not very honorable at all.
Once again, nail on the head.
“Do you guys have any idea how many Black, Hispanic/ Latino, Asian, native American and Jewish scout snipers have his brand or tattoo?”
Do you even KNOW anyone who is Black, Hispanic, Native, or Jewish? And please, tell me, HOW MANY JEWISH MARINES HAVE THE SS BRANDED ON THEM? You obviously have the numbers on this one, so please, enlighten us: How many non-Aryans have this tat’d/branded on them?
I would also like to know this as well.
Including the many minorities that would have no problem having such “SS” branded Marines watching their back when no one else is around.
I’m down as well. Let’s here it. We want numbers.
Honestly, I’ve never met a white Scout/Sniper who actually got the bolts. The only ones who figure they can get away with it are the minorities. I’m sure many choose not to get them because we know that it would associate us with the Nazis 20-30 years down the line. I know one Scout/Sniper who is from a country still engulfed in regular genocide and hate who collects racist tattoos. He started with the bolts, moved onto spiderwebs and the romper stomper tats. He’s also one of the smartest, toughest, meekest, and genuinely caring people I’ve ever met in my life. It just amuses him I guess.
As a community, we have as always known the SS bolts was a bad idea, until recently, it was kept on the down low. The vast majority of the Scout/Sniper community is mature and rational, but there are some to who the anonymity of the internet allows them to be brazen in their silliness. Rest assured that whoever runs that page doesn’t let many in the community know they do. Drawing that kind of attention to the platoon is nearly unforgivable.
SSD is entirely correct for calling attention to the issue and seeking it’s eradication on moral grounds. But there has been very little focus on the fact that this is a small vocal minority in the Scout/Sniper community that is tarnishing our reputation as a whole. I do think that SSD is giving too much of a platform for the outliers to come and make their childishness prevalent. I think it would serve the purposes in the future to continue updating as the war against this Facebook page continues, but lock the comments. We aren’t going to hear anything new from either side.
For something constructive, what avenues are open to promote this change within the Scout/Sniper community? Aside from monitoring this single FB page, how can we be sure of the disassociation? What is being done creatively to provide another symbol to take pride in? Who is sending crates of flags and t-shirts with suitable replacement symbols to the schoolhouses for dissemination among the units?
You are correct. The vast majority of Scout Snipers are fine upstanding folks. Great Americans. And, they should be leading the charge against their outliers.
I see no issue with it. Its a runic symbol from my ancestors past. Even if it weren’t its about time we stop living in the 40s. All I ever see in the news is Nazi this, evil Germans that. Because something was used once by a group of people everyone hates immediately everything associated with them should be condemned and we must start witch hunts to find all these “hate symbols”, as if it is the symbol itself that did the deeds. There is so much propaganda still being pumped into western civilization about “evil Nazis” you’d think they were still here preparing to invade Poland again. Communists killed 50+ million more people than the nazis have, should we remove the stars from the American flag because it was a main symbol for all things soviet? Ban hammers because it was a symbol of the soviet people? What this amounts to is an overreaction by brainwashed people that refuse to let WWII end.
Actually, the problem is that since the 80s we haven’t seen much on Nazi atrocities in the MSM. When we forget as a people, cancers like this form. Every once in awhile they have to be diagnosed. Fortunately, most who get caught up in this type of behavior, when exposed, scatter like so many cockroaches from the corners of an abandoned tenement. The really hardcore will slink away, hiding their affiliation for another day. The folks that run that Facebook page are hardcore believers. They bear close watching. Those are the ones you really have to worry about.
Guys like you are easy. You self-identify as trouble. I love people who are in everyone’s face about their issue. You show your true colors. You probably don’t believe that the SS did any of those things do you?
Do everyone you know a favor and make a trip to DC a favor and visit the Holocaust museum. Then come back and tell us how great that symbol is.
You seem quick to assume I’m “one of them” which I am not. You failed to acknowledge any of my points and instead claimed im just another Nazi believer. That is exactly what I’m talking about, a good example of my statements. To many people see history the way they want to see it rather than logically view the facts.
Symbols don’t do deeds, man does. You seem unable to make the distinction, but don’t worry, many can’t in today’s society. If I tattooed a swastika to my chest but spent my entire life helping people, doing charities, saving lives would you cast darkened and disgusted eyes on me and shout “Kill him, he’s wearing a swastika! Nazi!”?
Read the first two sentences of your original post. SSD doesn’t have to label you: you did it yourself.
Because I have no issue with the runic symbol because my ancestors, who came long before the nazis, created it makes me a Nazi? That is very poor logic. Very, very poor.
John – That symbol isn’t the symbol of your or my ancestors. It was created specifically for use by the SS. Weve gone over this repeatedly.
And you’re the one going on about the unfair treatment of the Nazis. Basically, whatever they get, they’ve got coming, and then some.
“If I tattooed a swastika to my chest but spent my entire life helping people, doing charities, saving lives…”
Why not just skip the tattoo and run with the rest of the plan?
Shack!
You have more connection with your “ancient” Nordic ancestors than you do for your American ancestors… OK. Go to Norway, become a citizen, and see how far you get defending the symbols of the Third Reich over there.
If you don’t like Jews, just be an anti-Semite. If you don’t like dark people, join the Klan. If you think killing Americans is OK, join Al-Queda… Just don’t hide behind (admittedly stylish) National Socialist symbols. What’s the tune for “Socialism”?
*rune, not tune
What a very ignorant and insulting post. First I’ll address my ancestors. My ancestors are important no matter where I live. If I live in America than by nationality I am American, but by blood I am a European and that will always mean more to me. Do you know why it’s illegal in Europe? Because they don’t want anyone going against the written law of “this is what happened, what we say is true, don’t question it” even if the evidence doesn’t support it. Its politically motivated by people who want to keep making money.
Jew hate ( which I don’t) does not mean anti-Semite. First not all Jews are semites. Though there is a Jewish racial group they, like gypsys, are very mixed but still closely related. Not all are semites. Secondly not all Semites are Jews, there are a lot of Arabs that are also Semitic.
The klans base is not hating dark people, its a white/christian supremacy group with separatist ideas. Many of their victims are not even dark.
Al-Queda is an offshoot of the military group that was built by the Americans to defend Afghanistan against the Russian invasion and are not doing the same against the American invasion.
National Socialism was created as the base of German revitalization after A) the unfair Treaty of Versailles and B) Take back the industry and media that was predominately under Jewish control (yes it was, you can research it yourself. History cannot be racist.)
Do not assume because i said these things that i must be an “Evil Nazi jew hating Klansman”, I’m not. These are simple fact anyone can find.
After reading that, you’re either a card carrying member or the one of the biggest dupes that ever lived.
Interested in buying some land in Florida?
“…but by blood I am a European and that will always mean more to me”
I don’t know where to start. Is “Europe” a county? Can you tell me how to get to Europe if I’m in Barcelona? Do I go left, or right?
Also, if being European is always gonna’ mean more to you than being an American, try applying for “Europe” citizenship.
“(t)he klans base is not hating dark people, its a white/christian supremacy group with separatist ideas”.
So advocating White supremacy and racial separation implies that your base is LOVING dark people? I’m getting mixed messages…
“National Socialism was created as the base of German revitalization after A) the unfair Treaty of Versailles and B) Take back the industry and media that was predominately under Jewish control”
How’d that German Revitalization go? And those Jews, always running things: Industry, Banking, Media… I see your point: Take things away from those who’ve built them (as long as they’re an easily identified minority), redistribute to Christian/Socialist Aryans. When you put it that way, Socialism sounds AWESOME!!!
End of the day, why are these scout snipers willing to fight for this hill to defend their association with this nazi symbol? It seems that their only defense is that they have been using it for 30 years, oh and that it looks cool because it has SS in it. It is disturbing because it sounds like none of them are thinking the logic through. The amount of resistance they are putting up to letting a sickening symbol go is very disheartening to our armed forces.
This isn’t an attack on people who chooses to bend rules, or wear pirate patches on deployment or other just motivational/morale boosters. They cannot seem to grasp that nobody should even be remotely linked to nazis. It is kinda disturbing to want to be, no matter how long it has been.
If these guys are fighting for ideal that has been attached to that symbol they should e condemned no question. It woul seem though they are fighting for the history of the Scout Sniper “Ss” not the nazi party. Something to think about, The EAGLE symbol of America, freedom and national pride. The EAGLE symbol of the Holy Roman Empire carried into battle at the head of every roman legion. The EAGLE or Hoheitsadler adopted by the Third Reich government as the national symbol and can still be found through out Germany. So we should start condemning eagles? Where is the line drawn on what is a symbol and what is ideology. Through out history the concurrers have adopted symbols of the concurred and vise versu. As well as present day military’s adopting symbols of old. Is this in bad taste…..yeah is it to be condemned? To me thats personal preference.
No, we shouldn’t condem eagles. We should condem anyone seeking to replace our very well established American eagle with any Third Reich eagles.
Once again an adolescent attempt at deflectinng responsibility. The Eagle has been used by a multitude of Governments including Germany, before, during and after the Nazi regime. The doppelsigrunen were developed specifically for use by the SS.
Go actually research before you embarrass yourself further.
And all of you apologists. Stop with the, “what about…” No one wants lame assed excuses. All folks want to see is an acknowledgement that the use of the symbol is wrong and for folks to stop using it. All you have to do is look at the others who continue its use, Nazis, White Supremacists and outlaw biker gangs. Do ou want Marines mixed up in their company? I don’t.
There’s a difference between the way the eagle is depicted/drawn as a part of the US and the way it was by the 3rd Reich. If we used the same style eagle that the NAZIs did then I would have a problem with that but that’s not the case. Furthermore, the eagle is not that closely associated with the 3rd Reich, unlike the swastika and the SS’s lightning bolt runes, or the SS’s totenkopf (death’s head) symbol for that matter. The eagle was not used on any of their vehicles or German flag of that time, it was only really featured as a small emblem on the chest (sleeves for the SS) of their uniforms and on the sides of their helmets, it was more of holdover from the times of the Kaiser more than an aspect of the 3rd Reich and the only place it was feature prominently outside of parade pieces was the Kriegsmarine flag.
As a former Marine I’m embarrassed to see our scout/sniper clinging so stubbornly to a symbol that’s so closely associated with hate and atrocities, I’m kind of surprised that they haven’t also adopted a gold colored totenkopf (death’s head) which was another symbol of the SS and try to “reclaim” that too.
I can understand that the SS symbol is pretty low hanging fruit as far as logos are concerned and while the Waffen SS were a very capable military unit (in the early years) you still can’t ignore the atrocities that they regularly committed, including the unwarranted execution of American POWs. To me it seems that the scout/sniper community was, in addition to being insensitive, lazy in adopting the SS lightning runes as their symbol, it wouldn’t be all that hard to come up with their own symbol based on using two S’s. If they wanted to keep the lightning theme all they had to was change the ends of the S’s to points instead of flat ends and you’d have a symbol that, while reminiscent of the SS runes, would unique to the scout/snipers.
Ok, page cannot be found. Who did what?
Maybe you ousted the dirty culprits with your excellent reporting?
No they couldn’t adopt the totenkopf the USMC reconnaissance battalions already have it. But they are in a long list of military units that have adopted it, some officially and some not. Again like SS (which is two nordic sig-rune or “sun” later changed to “victory” so literally meaning “victory, victory”) the totenkopf was used way before nazi Germany got ahold of it with the French, Spanish, polish, and British to name a few. This goes back to the ideology agument I brought up, I am far from adolescent these days, I am not embarrassed and my research is sound. I am introducing another point into a debate, not calling it right or wrong. Take for instance the arrow used in most U.S. military symbolism to denote types of units comes from tyr Norse god of war. Also used by the SS as a symbols of leadership all officers that were SS trained wore it, it was also the unit insignia of the 32nd SS. Do we need to go back and change the US military battle symbols cause some douche bags happened to use it, personally I don’t think so. Again how far do we go with it, most symbols came from some where else or are based on something else and the Germans used a lot of them. As I said before where do we draw the line of symbol vs. ideology? If these guys are fighting for this because they follow the ideology in any way shape or form they are WRONG and furious vengeance should be brought on them. If they are doing it to preserve some of the over 30yr history of the unit they fought in and lost buddies in which is in no way connected to nazi SS, it puts it in a different light but again it’s up to each his own. I’ve brought up the points I’ve wanted and there are much more important things to waste time on.
Never mind the pictures your SS holding up flags of the nazi SS in the background. Just coincidence, right?
http://terminallance.com/2012/02/10/terminal-lance-insspiration/
Hilarious cartoon summing this discussion.
I don’t mean to speak out of turn, but I think everyone needs to take a step back and tone down the vitriol. These guys have fought and died along with the rest in Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps their insistence on clinging to a symbol that was used by the Nazi SS is asinine, but I’m not here to debate that.
To me, this seems like a Marine bashing fest and I think that you people need to stick solely to one argument. It’s just inappropriate that commentators claim to have lost respect for the Scout Snipers. The bottom line is their field-craft and marksmanship skills are among the very best in the world. Lets face it, these brave men are trained killers. They are warriors that define their identities by their battlefield prowess.
The Schutzstaffel were among the best of the warriors in Nazi Germany. They fought loyally and bravely for their country. In our eyes (at least mine), they committed horrible atrocities on the behalf of Hitler that are still unfathomable. But that doesn’t change the fact that they were excellent at what they did.
Warriors are often single-minded, arrogant, hard, and slightly psychotic. I believe that it comes with the territory of conditioning the human mind to do what it is born to hate; killing. They can also appear myopic and insensitive, especially to outsiders. The bottom line is that while I in no way condone their behavior or use of the SS runes, I do understand the desire to utilize a symbol that holds behind it the very definition of fear and intimidation.
Militaries have utilized symbols to instill fear in their enemies before they even occupy the battlefield, just as they have used them to instill a sense of cohesiveness and morale in the men in those units. So I think all of us can stop pretending to be shocked that a bunch of hard men with a very specific purpose would adopt such a one.
There is no reason to “lost respect” for any of these fighting men. Just understand that as Marines, we are institutionalized to disregard frequent change and fair-weather policies. Do you remember the amount of outrage over the Commandant disallowing the rolling of sleeves? It seems ridiculous to an outsider, but Marines as a whole cling to our traditions because our identities seem to constantly in crisis by the threat of the Navy replacing us on boats and the Army replacing us on land. It is only natural to cling to every vestige of defining material we can.
At the bottom of all this, that is the issue. Somebody just needs to design these warriors a symbol that they can adopt and be proud of. Then they can define their legacy by what they have done on the battlefield, instead of drawing from and evil empire to create mystique and aura.
Cpl/USMC
“institutionalized to disregard frequent change and fair-weather policies.” Uh, no. Marines are actually pretty darn sharp when it comes to embracing change. Who invented modern amphib warfare? Who envisioned the use of the helo as a combat transport?
The fact some can’t get their heads wrapped around SS runes being bad isn’t resistance to change. It’s a misplaced inferiority complex looking for validation. Marines are as badazz as the SS ever were. Why take a step down?
Sir, I agree. When I stated that we as Marines are “institutionalized to disregard frequent change and fair-weather policies,” I was primarily referencing our adherence to age-old traditions, not our ability to rapidly improvise, adapt, and overcome our enemies on the battlefield, time and time again.
Thanks for clearing that up. As for the second part, probably and yes, why do?
Cpl/USMC
One of my favorite quotes about the SS: “As soldiers they can be very fairly be called elite troops. The problem with the SS, of course, is..they’re Nazis! They have this Nazi ideaology. And remember, we won. We beat em’. And deservingly so.” Dr William Atwater
Thank’s SSD for showing this to the world. Pardon my grammar as english isn’t my native language. I am one of many who reported the page on facebook after reading your article. Right now the site is completly off. And for those who gonna reply (if they do)- i know that americans came to europe to fight in ww2 we were there too(so pls dont come up with something like: “we saved your asses” it shows your ignorance).If those SS brand defenders, naziwonnabees are so insulted with the actions that were undertaken maybe they need a little history lesson (type auschwitz in youtube)? Do they want to be identified with people who murdered milions of women and children? Please stop turning those signs into something else. They will be remembered as brands of terror.
I recommend watching a couple superb films to help clarify this issue for everyone here – ‘The Pianist’ and ‘Schindlers List’
Both are extremely well done Holocaust films and make it very clear what life was like under the Nazis in camps and ghettos administered by the SS
The Waffen SS was not directly involved in this task but they did participate in numerous atrocities – no matter how skilled they were as soldiers this legacy tarnishes them forevermore
As the SSD administrator knows I am a serious WW II history buff – in fact rarely do I see anyplace on TV regarding the European Theater that I have not been too – I have been to numerous Nazi concentration and extermination camps; they are extremely depressing , somber places and I always leave very troubled ; the depth of the human tragedy involved defies words
As I said when I was young I would have thought having the SS symbol affiliated with my skill set would be cool; now I realize it is simply unacceptable for any branch or unit in this countries military to have anything to do with any Nazi symbol
It is meaningless that a few people don’t get the message; the important part is that others like us fully understand what is involved and will not stand for it
If there would have been some more like us in the 1930’s perhaps many millions of lives could have been saved
Never again
Mr. VICKERS, We’ll said. Adding some out of the box thinking (non-US) I’m just wondering what would happenned if any foreign country unit would – adopt some KKK symbol and then argued that burning a cross is a Roman tradition.