SOF Week

Gunfighter Moment – Ken Hackathorn

Ken with a Carbine

Make no mistake, the issue of magazine capacity and ownership is not over. We may have won the last battle, but only a fool will believe that it won’t come around again….look at the states that have imposed magazine capacity bans. Right now magazines are back in great supply, prices have pretty much returned to the pre-Sandy Hook era. Stock up now. don’t wait until the country is in another panic cycle. Whatever your primary small arms inventory includes should be dealt with right now. AR15/M4 magazines should be considered as semi-disposal, so while 8 or 10 may seem like a lot, with use they go South pretty quick. If you leave them loaded, they will either swell or the springs will relax to the point that the bolt may not lock to the rear every time when empty.

Bolt over base malfunctions are typical on the last 2 or 3 rounds left in the magazine because of weak springs that do not have enough tension to raise the cartridge base fast enough. Pistol magazines get stepped on, ran over, and abused in many ways. Any autoloading pistol should have at least 5 magazines, 10 is better. OEM magazines are generally best, with the exception being 1911 pistols. After market magazines from companies like Wilson Combat and Chip McCormick are highly recommended. Mecar magazines have proven to be excellent…I use them a lot. Many people clean and lube their sidearms regularly, but never make any effort to service their magazines. Number your magazines so you know which ones are bad and which ones are good. I prefer to have training/practice magazines, and other mags that are used for carry. Rotate magazines regularly….I do so about every six months. Remember, with any magazine fed firearm, the magazine is the weak link…have plenty in storage, maintain and take care of the ones you have.

-Ken Hackathorn

Ken Hackathorn has served as a US Army Special Forces Small Arms Instructor, Gunsite Instructor, and NRA Police Firearms Instructor. He is currently an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor, Certified Deputy Sheriff with Washington County SO, Ohio, and a SRT member and Special Response Team trainer. Ken has trained US Military Special Operations forces, Marine FAST and SOTG units and is a contract small arms trainer to FBI SWAT and HRT.

Ken has provided training to Federal, State, and local law enforcement agencies and been active in small arms training for the past 25 years. He has written firearms related material for Guns & Ammo, Combat Handguns, Soldier Of Fortune, and currently American Handgunner and contributed to at least six other gun/shooting journals. Ken was also a founding member of IPSC and IDPA.

To see Ken’s Training Class Schedule visit

Gunfighter Moment is a weekly feature brought to you by Alias Training & Security Services. Each week Alias brings us a different Trainer and in turn they offer SSD readers hard earned words of wisdom.

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89 Responses to “Gunfighter Moment – Ken Hackathorn

  1. Spare springs for magazines are also useful.

  2. Luke says:

    words to live by.
    I can’t believe how many of my friends will drop $500+ on a gun and want to save $10 buying crappy non-OEM magazines.
    Buy good, buy many.

  3. Chase says:

    Im surprised a trained as renowned as Ken Hackathorn still believes that leaving magazines loaded is somehow bad for the springs.

  4. TominVA says:

    Hello, I need to hijack this thread for a moment. Apologies in advance.

    I remember just prior to the assault weapons ban back in the early ’90s. Everyone was scrambling for black guns. Sure that we would never see them available again, I wanted one, but with a wife and two kids to support, I just could not justify the cost. The ban went in to effect and you know what happened?

    Nothing. Life went along. Everything was fine.

    I think Obama’s a good guy in a tough job and though I support affordable health care for those who can’t afford it, I’m not a total liberal froo froo. I’m a retired Marine and a gun owner currently jonesing for an M870 Mk 1 (which are almost impossible to find it seems. Anybody?). So I totally get the desire for black guns and hi-cap mags – at least a dozen! – but I can’t deny that there are law abiding citizens who really should not have access to firearms like these – or any firearms.

    At a minimum, a restraining or protective order ought to result in confiscation of your firearms to prevent tragedies like this:

    I am a daily visitor to this site and some of the comments regarding gun ownership are just insane (see the post below about the Russian AK ban – just nuts; BTW I support the ban and feel it should be extended to all AKs – butt ugly rifle anyway). The anti gun crowd has a point: easy access to firearms does contribute to gun violence. Arming teachers in classrooms is NOT a reasonable response. Even if they can’t see their way to a new assault weapons ban, gun owners need to climb out of their fear bunkers and engage in sensible discussion on how to prevent these tragedies.

    I enjoy this site, but it really can be an assault weapons self-licking ice cream cone sometimes. Just thought I’d try to provide some balance. Thanks for reading my “gunfighter moment”.

    • SSD says:

      Face palm! “release the hounds!”

      • pnwto says:

        Where do these folks crawl out of?

        • TominVA says:

          Kansas originally. Finally Virginia by way of the Marine Corps.

          • Reverend says:

            As a native Virginian? Yeah…no… We do not share this view. We think NORTHERN Virginians are not TRUE Virginians because they seem to be from “somewhere else” most times, and have a slightly “socialist” bent to them.

            Jefferson, Patrick Henry, Thomas Payne, Washington… a few of the Virginians who would shudder, and shout at what has transpired since their demise.

    • pnwto says:

      Is there a reason you support the AK ban or does that just make your neckbeard feel warm and fuzzy?

      • kris says:

        So much going on here … You mention the anti gun crowd but I think what you meant to type there is “I”.

        Honestly WTF with the AK… or is it all semi auto detachable magazine rifles?

        • TominVA says:

          Another reason and not an important one but still this is how I feel:

          It was designed by the Soviets and was the primary service rifle of the forces of evil on this planet for most of my life. I don’t want commie weapons despoiling our country. Just sayin’

          • Kris says:

            Oh I see you impart social, ideocratic, emotional and political values on an inanimate object. Let me guess if chesty puller carried an AK then it would be a beautifully simplistic pice of engeering that every true American should own.

          • Philip says:

            That stance doesn’t negate the fact that they’re well-built, easy to maintain rifles…

            My great uncle spent plenty of time on the receiving end of German weaponry in WWII, but that didn’t stop him from hunting with a Kar98 for the rest of his life. He always said it was a “damn fine rifle” and it worked for what it was intended: accurately putting the bullet where he aimed it (in this case, at deer and bear.)

      • TominVA says:

        I recognize there are folks who own them responsibly and enjoy shooting them, but the widespread availability of these weapons (assault rifles, not just AKs) seems to be spawning an anti-government, paranoid, hold-up-in-the-compound mindset that I don’t think is healthy for our republic. Plus their availability does make possible the mass shootings we’ve seen over the last few years.

        I just don’t think they’re worth the toll they are taking on our society and there’s no threat to your home that you can’t handle with your 870 and buckshot (or slugs). If you need more than that, than we need to be getting smarter about prevention and funding more law enforcement.

        And they really are just totally butt ugly rifles.

        Neckbeard? Cute. Had a pretty good real beard going for a little while after I retired but the wife voted it off the island.

        • Riceball says:

          Availability has nothing to do with the mass shootings, if they can’t get their hands on an “evil” black rifle then they’ll just bolt action rifles, shotguns, pistols, or even bows, crossbows, and then there’s the most readily available weapon out there, the automobile. What it boils down to is this, if someone is dead set on going on a rampage they will do so with what ever they can get their hands on and there are plenty of things out there just as deadly as a gun. Just take a look at any shopping mall parking lot or a school parking lot when school lets out and tell me that someone going crazy in their car can’t cause just as much, or maybe even more carnage, than they can with a gun.

        • PNW_Tree_Octopus says:

          This… this is getting reposted somewhere because the absurdity is awesome.

      • defensor fortisimo says:

        You’re complaining about a website named Soldier systems fixating on “assault weapons”, (which incidentally the embargo doesn’t affect, the weapons being imported are semi automatic.) That being said, even if said weapons were select fire, even if the aesthetic qualities of a weapon had any bearing on the morality of owning one, we would be falling off topic for the core of this discussion.

        Setting aside for a second our personal feelings for the commander in Chief, you spoke of our passion for “black guns and high capacity magazines”. Both of those terms are bread and butter language for folks who are either to a) ignorant, b) lazy, c)manipulative, or d) all of the above to spend 10 minutes on Google to educate themselves on basic terminology.
        ” So I totally get the desire for black guns and hi-cap mags – at least a dozen! – but I can’t deny that there are law abiding citizens who really should not have access to firearms like these – or any firearms.”
        If they pose a danger to themselves or others, there are already laws in place to act as preventative measures. If they really are law abiding citizens however, on what grounds would you deny them access?
        “The anti gun crowd has a point: easy access to firearms does contribute to gun violence.”
        And in countries that do limit access to firearms, (i.e., my current country of residence, the UK,) other forms of violence sky rocket. After that, knifes are next to go, followed by carrying anything that could be perceived as a weapon. All of this goes well, of course, until a shooting occurs with a firearm that wasn’t even supposed to exist, at which point the whole area tears itself apart. You know, the civilized option.
        ” Arming teachers in classrooms is NOT a reasonable response.”
        If the idea was to toss a box of firearms into the teacher’s lounge and let them come back from lunch armed for bear, okay, you might have a point. That’s not what’s being discussed, however. All the movement to arm teachers is suggesting is that folks who have taken the time trouble and training to learn how to carry concealed, who in all likelihood carry responsibly around children outside of school. are not going to lose their shit and start shooting the moment they step into the lobby. Ergo, since gun violence has a tendency to happen again and again where people don’t have easy access to firearms, allowing qualified individuals access under controlled circumstances might just might be the means of making gun free zones actually safe.
        “Even if they can’t see their way to a new assault weapons ban, gun owners need to climb out of their fear bunkers and engage in sensible discussion on how to prevent these tragedies.”
        I’ve already touched on this elsewhere, but this actually has the curious result of answering your own question.
        First off, the “assault weapon” bans that have been introduced and defeated do not affect assault rifles. Those are already covered by legislation passed in 1934. All the current bans do are hone on a set of aesthetic and/or ergonomic features because THEY LOOK SCARY. Who’s living out of a fear bunker again? We deal with an opposition willing to demonize millions of law abiding Americans, refuses to educate themselves on the rudimentary function of the very items they’re trying to ban, subscribes to a superstitious belief that borders on animism to a rudimentary tool, and is willing to ignore the very principles on which this country founded and WE’RE unable to engage in a rational discussion?
        I can’t speak about your service history, I don’t know you. But don’t kid yourself that you’re providing balance. You are what the International Lord of Hate Larry Correia would describe as a “concern troll,” and I’m going to go out on a limb and label you as a Fudd to boot.

        • TominVA says:

          [sigh] I’ll respond, but going to have a cocktail with the wife first. Hendricks up, several olives (more of meal that way).

          • Tank says:

            TominVA, instead of a cocktail, how about you take after Jonestown and mix up some special Kool-Aid and just not return to the conversation. Nobody will miss your misguided fucking banter anyway.

        • TominVA says:

          I’m back. Hendricks is the best.

          Ok here we go…

          “Both of those terms are bread and butter language…”
          “do not affect assault rifles. Those are already covered by legislation passed in 1934”

          Answer: I understand it’s not mere semantics to an enthusiast, but to many citizens concerned about the violence, the distinctions you point out are totally lost. This is part of what I mean by “sensible discussion.” There needs to be a willingness on both sides of this debate to acknowledge that each side has a valid point. Free citizens should have the right to defend their homes and property. Anti-gunners see “semi auto detachable magazine rifles” (thanks Kris) as an incredibly powerful weapon that no responsible citizen needs, even for self defense, and that makes possible the recent mass shootings that we’ve seen.

          “there are already laws in place to act as preventative measures”

          Answer: …and how’s that working? Not too well from my figtin’ hole.

          ” Who’s living out of a fear bunker again? ”

          Answer: Lot’s of really nice people who don’t understand why people should be allowed to have “semi auto detachable magazine rifles” with 30 round mags. Our local sheriff’s office SWAT team rehearses responding to a school shooter. I’m glad they do, but can you see how crazy this situation is? I grew up in a time when this crap didn’t happen. One reason-maybe not the only one-is that NOBODY had these kinds of weapons. They SHOULDN’T HAVE TO. I get your point about properly training for concealed carry (the teacher thing), but again, NO ONE should have to. This is one of the wealthiest nations on earth. This should not be happening.

          “WE’RE unable to engage in a rational discussion?”

          Answer: Not that you’re unable, but that you don’t. The NRA and [most] gun owners refuse to acknowledge that easy ownership of certain firearms is a significant contributing factor to the violence we’re seeing today. Yes, there are people who would vote to take away every firearm you and I have, but the old “giv’em and inch and they’ll take a mile” isn’t working. Wackos are killing people with semi auto detachable magazine rifles (and pistols – leaving that alone for now) and the only message they get from the gun rights crowd is that we want people to have more of them. If you were them, what would you think? Can you empathize even a little?

          Gotta go. Dinner’s getting cold and someone very import an is getting annoyed. More later.

          • Tank says:

            TominVA, Let me break this down for you high speed. If you get shot with buckshot from your 870, from about 10 feet, your probably fucked. If you get shot from 10 feet with an ugly ass commie fucking AK, your probably fucked. The only problem is, if there is a ban on assault weapons, how long do you think it will be before you lose your shotgun. Last time I checked, anti-gun nuts hate all guns, not just scary call of duty shoot em’ up school massacre guns. Your shotgun, that you think you are entitled to own, is just as lethal as my little .223 caliber bullet. Why should you be trusted with a shotgun ? Maybe after your wife leaves, you are sipping cocktails and listening to Hendricks with your man lover and your wife walks in on you getting your fart box tongue punched, so you blast her down with your 870, then in a fit of rage go on a shooting spree. Maybe you are a crazy fucking schizo on meds, like most others in recent shootings, the only common theme. This isn’t a world of rainbows and my little pony, bad shit happens, you can’t prevent it. Look at China, you take guns away, guys walk into schools and hack up 35 kids with a meat cleaver. You know what beats a meat cleaver ? A fucking gun asshole. On the topic of rational discussion from both sides. Being from bum fuck Kansas where the only shootings were probably when Jim-Bob shot Joe-Bob with his squirrel gun after finding in bed with his sis’ or in Virginia where you live now and the occasional thug gangsta ass crip with his Glock turned sideways, you are oblivious to illegal guns crossing the borders, or the thousands that are already on the streets. As mentioned so eloquently by the gentleman from the UK, you take guns away from good people, bad people shoot you with bad guns. Did I break that down enough for you ?

            I don’t know you, but I am going to take a wild guess and say I can do mag changes faster than you, lets count together, three 10 rounds mags equal 30, stay with me, one 30 round mag equals 30, same amount. Mag limits have nothing to do with death rates. How many people got killed by the shooter, sharp shooting people on the highway ? Did he need to expend an entire magazine to instill fear and bring a city to a halt ?

            Finally, while you sit in your lair, sipping froo froo drinks choking yourself and hard knotting to archived Obama speeches about change, remember that there are millions of Americans who see things on a much more realistic note, and that support gun ownership of all kinds, and are willing to say fuck off to liberal cocks like you, come to think of it, we all spoke already and the most recent gun ban got shot down.

          • Terry B says:


            You would have a better argument if you had more facts to back up your assertions. You do know that today violent crime – including crime involving any firearm – is actually down to pretty historic lows.

            This despite the significant increase of those “black guns” with so called high capacity magazines in American homes. So more guns clearly doesn’t equal more violence.

            Therefore, based on the evidence, I choose to believe that the presence of those weapons in responsible hands has helped reduce violence not increase it.

            Even if that weren’t true I would still fully support the private ownership of “black rifles”, i.e. “the right to bear arms” because the 2nd Amendment is the cornerstone of our Constitution and our Republic.

            If a citizen is physically and mentally fit enough to handle a firearm then he or she has not only the right, but the duty and obligation to do so. At least the Founding Fathers thought as much.

            I have to go with Tank on this – although he has a more colorful way of expressing himself. Giving up civil liberties for perceived “safety” is not only a slippery slopy…it is cowardly.

            • Kris says:


            • Bill says:

              Correlation doesn’t equal causation. They’re hundreds, thousands of variables that go into crime rates. You can choose to believe that the proliferation of black guns ties into a decrease in crimes, but I have locally, over a multi-county area, over 2 decades, never known of one being used in self-defense.

            • Bill says:

              Correlation doesn’t equal causation. They’re hundreds, thousands of variables that go into crime rates. You can choose to believe that the proliferation of black guns ties into a decrease in crimes, but I have locally, over a multi-county area, over 2 decades, never known of one being used in self-defense. The empirical evidence is what counts. And so far, there isn’t any valid, reliable research that indicates that military pattern rifles have any impact on crime, up or down. There have been more used in the shootings involving LEOs, but those cases are so uncommon that they are likely statistically insignificant at this time.

              • Terry B. says:


                I agree with you that correlation doesn’t equal causation. However, despite the 24hr news cycle saturation coverage of every shooting or grisly incident, the fact is that violent crime in the US is down significantly.

                Yet, at the same time, there are considerably more “black guns” and semi-automatic handguns in the publics hands than ever before.

                While I can’t prove or disprove a causal link I think I am at least safe in drawing the conclusion that more guns have obviously not generated more crime.

                And I purposely said that I “chose to believe” that guns were having a positive impact to simply counter TominVA’s assertion that guns were a negative factor.

                Thanks, I appreciate the dialog.

          • k says:

            unless your over 100 years old, you didnt go to school when semi auto detachable magazine rifles were not available. not to mention if you did go to school 100 years ago, you could have bought all the full auto weapons and explosives you wanted, because the NFA wasnt in effect. research school shooting on the internet and you will see this shit has been going on for decades all over the world. my favorit is the guy in germany who killed several and critically wounded dozens at his catholic private school with his lance and flamethrower.

    • Unfortunately it is people like you, who should know better, are the reason we are in the mess we are in right now with the assclown in office

      Thanx for having your head up your ass on this and God knows countless other issues – your really helping the cause

  5. Veronica says:

    Here in California, a 10 round magazine for a Mini-14, retails ~30-40 $$. For some reason out of the box, Ruger was kind enough to give me two 5 round magazines.

  6. JW says:

    “springs will relax to the point that the bolt may not lock to the rear every time when empty”

    This is not accurate. As long as the springs are not compressed or stretched beyond their rated working load they are not damaged. It’s science. It’s actually scientific law. Hooke’s law to be precise. Like Newton’s laws, it is a given. It cannot be disproved or challenged because it’s been scientifically tested over the course of centuries. Any mechanical engineer can tell you this. “Weakened mag springs” from being stored in loaded condition cannot happen. Other things, yes. Springs no.

    LT. Col. USMC (Ret.)
    Combat Engineer
    B.A. Mechanical engineering
    M.S. Materials Science

    • Wow thanx for the input even though I have seen countless examples of you being dead ass wrong – older mags in particular ; this is a fact

      But then again what the hell do Ken Hackathorn and I know about this subject matter right ?

      • Thomas says:

        Hello Larry.

        In your experience, are there any Ar-15 magazines that can be loaded for a long time and still perform well? P-Mags? Troy Mags? Ken Elmore’s magazines enhanced GI mags with the “Red Spring”?

        Hope this finds you well. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

      • SSD says:

        Hey man, it’s the internet. Everyone’s an expert. Just ask them.

    • Tank says:

      JW, its amazing that after so many years in college all you studied was spring technology. I’ll tell you what, send me your address, and I will send you all my shitty mags that are worn out with bad springs from years of deployments and shooting. Maybe you can put all those fancy degrees to use and reverse engineer the problem with my mag springs. Then again as a Lt. Col. you probably didn’t shoot very much, some poor lance corporal probably loaded all your mags for you, so you missed out on the issue of degraded mags plaguing the military over the last 20+ years.

      SSG USA (got the fuck out)
      Flame Thrower Instructor
      B.A. (don’t have it yet, maybe another 10 years)

      • pnwto says:

        But… He’s an officer. Always right.


      • Rick says:

        He is correct on the metal fatigue facts. Compression cycles will cause the springs to lose over all tension, leading to reduced strength. Leaving them comperessed below their elastic limit will not.

        Flame on.

        Engineer who studied metal fatigue, also 18 Series.

    • SeanL says:

      “The great thing about science is that it’s true whether you believe in it or not.” -Neil Degrasse Tyson

      JW is correct, despite being an Officer. Hooke’s Law, being a Law, invalidates the statements made by Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, and new internet sensation Tank about magazine springs fatiguing from being compressed for extended periods. All of these “old mags” that have seen “years of deployments and shooting” have simply undergone enough load-unload cycles that the springs are worn out. Oddly enough, springs “rest” in two positions: fully compressed, and fully extended. Leaving a magazine loaded for an extended period will not harm the spring any more than leaving it unloaded.

      • Tank says:

        Wow, I am an internet sensation now, my life has meaning again. You know, fancy phrases like “load-unload cycles” “compression duration” and all the other two dollar words you brainiac engineers are using sounds like common man talk for “wears the fuck out.” Just to clarify, you are telling us that loading and unloading my mag a billion times will wear the spring out, but leaving in jammed into the base plate fully loaded for years will not ? Sounds legit to me. Then again I am not a 17th century physicist, just an ass hole internet sensation without an engineering degree.

        • SeanL says:

          That’s exactly what I’m saying, and unless you have empirical (meaning, factual and scientific and not the product of your multitudes of grandiose war stories) data to the contrary, you may want to stick with memorizing the Flag Code and debating the 2nd Amendment with internet trolls.

        • Rick says:

          Too drunk to decode if sarcasm or not..

          But yes, leaving the magazines loaded below the elastic limit of the spring (IE 30 rounds or less, if well designed) will not cause any more wear than a single load-unload cycle.

          Wooo science. Its a bitch sometimes.

  7. Bill says:

    This is hysterical- these are the salad days of the AR. There has never been more companies making more guns, yet people think they are going to evaporate at the stroke of a pen. Apparently we had more common sense and less reliance on ad hominem attacks in 1972 when the choice was between a Colt Sporter with the funky 3 power scope or Armalite AR180.

    • Tank says:

      Well I guess that pen stroke was felt pretty hard in New York. Evaporate, no. Hard as fuck to get, yup.

      • Mike says:

        Ugh, tell me about it. I remember (not fondly) paying $30 for an unwrapped, beat up USGI mag in 2000. Of course that magazine would be illegal now anyways thanks to (UN)SAFE.

  8. Mike says:

    Absolutely agree that spare mags are a high priority. Given that they will almost certainly be the target of another ban, now is the time to get them. I am quickly nearing my personal goal of 21 mags per rifle, and 15 mags per pistol.

    I know that seems like a lot to most folks, but I’m 30 and want to “finish” magazine buying within the next year or so for the rest of my life. It’s not so much that I don’t want to buy any more mags after that (I’m sure I will), I just dont want to HAVE to and then be up shit creek thanks to a new mag ban. If I die with a bunch of mags still in the wrapper in my gun room, I count that as a success.

  9. TominVA says:


    So, I’ve been called an asshole, and I’ve gunned down my wife – would never have you guys gun down your wives. “Wives” right?

    We’re talking mag drills, Tank Talk Tuesdays, and assclown Presidents. But that’s not the worst.

    The worst? You guys think Hendricks is a rock star! Hendricks is gin! Wait, I see it’s actually Hendrick’s with an apostrophe. I need to stop using a straw and look at the bottle.

    Alright, seriously, perhaps I opened the door with my “crazy” and “insane” comments. If so, I apologize, but I see these pro-gun opinions all the time that have no regard for the truly valid concerns of our fellow citizens. I really think it’s important to inject a different point of view. Well, if at first you don’t succeed…

    Happy weekend,

    • Erik says:


      With everything you have posted, the only thing we can agree on is your choice of gin( Hendrick’s is a fine, fine gin.) I do, however, respect your point of view, even if it is absolutely against everything I believe in.


    • Tank says:

      I am glad to see that what you took from all that was discovering grammatical errors, misunderstandings about your fruity ass drink choices, which were a result of you thinking out loud in the first place, and getting butt hurt about people who don’t agree with you. Don’t get me wrong, most people on here weren’t attacking you personally, just your version of gun control. I, on the other hand, was attacking you personally and telling you that your perception of gun rights is fucked up. But at least I admit to it. Thanks for mentioning Tank Talk Tuesdays, keep spreading the word, it might catch on. Maybe if you don’t want to hang your head in shame, you should spout your communist ideals on an MSNBC, or a CNN blog, I am sure there are plenty of King Obama supporters on there that will tip their glasses to you, you can all suck down douchey overpriced drinks and surmise how to take away my firearms so I am not a danger to society.

      • Dev says:

        I think, after reading his posts on the flag debate and those here, Tank should have his own regular column on SSD.

    • William says:

      Tom, you are on a pro-gun website, what do you expect to see? You talk about us having no concern for the views of fellow citizens, are we not your fellow citizens of this great nation as well? Do we not have valid concerns as well, are we complete idiots to you?

      It is ok to have a different point of view, everyone needs to respect that, but it is also important to be educated. Especially on matters that our country was founded on, and beliefs that are still held today by many. To me, there is no middle ground on gun control. Anti gun people want to ban every weapon out there, this is what they want, and what they are vehemently trying to do. The thing is though, most pro-gun people are ok with some laws, laws that keep things out of people’s hands that do not need them. We have those laws today, and have had them for a very long time.

      We have measures in every state that accomplish this, no more needs to be done. All that can be done to prevent tragedies from happening at this point is to be able to recognize that someone needs help, stop demonizing these types of illnesses so the person will feel that they can seek help without being ostracized, and lastly to provide someone the care that they need before they act on their evil desires. But in the end, tragedies will still happen regardless, no matter what, because that is the way of the world. People will get what they need to commit atrocities, no matter the laws, no matter the consequences. That will happen till the end of time, and there is nothing that we can any further to prevent these things from happening.

      I know it is an old argument, but it is true, bad people will get weapons whether they are legal or not. If it is not a gun, it is a knife, or a bomb, or a sharpened stick etc etc.

      Although the tone of my post may seem harsh, I was not trying to be a dick. It is hard for me to understand how a fellow American can be so ignorant to think that implementing any gun control at all, especially with what we already have on the books, is going to change anything for the better. If anything, we need to repeal a lot of laws that are on the books already.

      It is commonly said that only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun, and it is truer today than ever. The only problem is, is that it is getting harder to be that good guy today with all of the laws preventing us from being him, and until we can educate people and help them understand that this is true, it will continue to get harder. Pro gun people are not the demons that the media portrays us as, we are the soldiers, the law enforcement officers, the normal joes, and we want what is best for this country, and one of the things that is not best, is more gun control preventing us from exercising our God given rights as an American citizen.

      • Bill says:

        Harder today? What laws? More states have CCW provisions than at any time in our history. Ten years ago if you said the SCOTUS would pass a decision like Heller you’d be accused of being on crack. More manufacturers are making more black guns than ever. Yeah, our legal system could use some streamlining, but it beats the alternative. There isn’t a politician in DC that doesn’t know that the fastest way to end their career is to do anything more than pay lip service to the idea of restrictive gun laws. Why do we insist on believing that the end is nigh when everything points to the opposite?

        • Tank says:

          I bet the Jews didn’t think some asshole would come along and try to exterminate their existence either. Guess what, it damn near happened. Stop living in a box. There will always be someone willing to go further and be more radical then the person before him. You have heard the term executive authority right ? You are probably the type of guy who ignores hurricane warnings, says everything will be ok, then is seen on TV whining like a little bitch waiting for the Coast Guard helicopter to pick him up. How many school shootings or other massacres do you think have to happen before executive authority is used to “make a difference” ?

            • Tank says:

              And checkmate… that’s a hard pill to swallow. Moving on.

              • Bill says:

                The German Jews during the 1930s and 1940s didn’t live in a representative Republic. And I’ve been through my share and am ready for my next bout of tornados and floods. My active killer kit lives in the trunk of the car, while my active killer training kit has it’s own bag in the storeroom.

                Dude, the facts are on my, your and our side. You don’t have to act like anti-gunners think we all act. Leave the histrionics to them.

  10. Ed says:

    Odd. Some confuse the rifle as a problem with the man with the rifle as the problem. Take away the rifle and you still have that man. If he is determined and skilled enough, he can and will hurt you.

    How do you fix that problem? Get a rifle…

  11. AntiCitizenOne says:

    “I grew up in a time when this crap didn’t happen. One reason-maybe not the only one-is that NOBODY had these kinds of weapons. ”

    TominVA – the semi-automatic versions of the AR15 and FALs have been around and available to civilians since the 1950s, and there weren’t a whole lot of mass shootings then. Only recently have we seen a huge spike of mass shootings – something else is afoot.

    And I am ashamed to be from the same state as you.

  12. AntiCitizenOne says:

    “Anti-gunners see “semi auto detachable magazine rifles” (thanks Kris) as an incredibly powerful weapon that no responsible citizen needs, even for self defense”

    If you call the cops, they will most likely bring their patrol rifles, which are the exact same as your feared “assault weapons” – and thus you have expressed a need for them. Why not just have the patrol rifle in your home?

    “there’s no threat to your home that you can’t handle with your 870 and buckshot (or slugs).”

    And there have been rampages committed with shotguns before, and buckshot and slug rounds have higher chances of overpenetrations than a 5.56 round or a handgun round in the home. Your point being what exactly?

  13. SeanL says:

    Wow, this thread was like a Cracker Barrel for trolls.

  14. Dellis says:

    TominVA states: – “I think Obama’s a good guy in a tough job…. but I can’t deny that there are law abiding citizens who really should not have access to firearms like these – or any firearms.

    At a minimum, a restraining or protective order ought to result in confiscation of your firearms to prevent tragedies like this:

    The anti gun crowd has a point: easy access to firearms does contribute to gun violence.”

    Please allow me to respond…..PHHT!

    Seriously, Obama just might be a nice guy but as a President he is a total asshat. He has no clue what the TITLE and RESPONSIBILITY of “President” (Commander) means or implies. He would be better suited as a late night TV host butt kissin celebrities.

    I agree there are tons of people who should NOT have a gun. You can see them every weekend at the local range. Tank tops, flip flops, hats slanted to the side holding a .22 caliber pistol all “gangsta” style reciting lines from Scarface. The real kicker? The ones who use their firearm to point out directions…”Yea, the bathroom is over there…there!” BUT these people just lack proper TRAINING and firearm etiquette.

    Second point – Really? Confiscation of firearms? Restraining orders? REALLY? Just who in the hell do we put in charge of that job? Nancy “I have a fart lodged in my throat” Pelosi?? I can see the questionnaire now…”Did you vote Republican?” …”Well yes I did and do”…’OK. UNFIT for gun ownership. Confiscate them! Thank you. OK, next?” Think before you spout off such drivel.

    Third point – By that logic lets ban all cars. More people die in car accidents than firearms. Yet there are perhaps just as many guns as cars. Easy access to keyboards also brings about moronic statements.

    • AntiCitizenOne says:

      No one really needs alcohol or motorcycles to have fun, and these two cause more deaths than guns each year, same goes for swimming pools – these kill kids moreso than guns!

  15. Dellis says:

    In terms of damage…..lets say we ban all firearms. There is not a single gun or bullet to be found anywhere.

    Yet some people are still unstable because you can’t ban evil or crazy. Instead of walking into a theater with a firearm that must be reloaded and has the chance of malfunction, Mr. Crazy just tosses out a few homemade molotov cocktails cooked up in his garage. Throws a few on the ornament drapes, on the carpet, seats. People panic and rush to the exits, it’s a mad stampede of human fireballs. Good thing no one got shot though.

  16. Reverend says:

    AGAIN! TOMINVA IS NOT A NATIVE VIRGINIAN! Those of us from the Commonwealth DO NOT share his values, opinions, or thought process!

  17. J says:

    @Dellis – Ban cinema’s…………………problem solved.

  18. Jon says:

    Read all of his arguments….bottom line, people are evil, not objects. Banning something doesn’t prevent people from doing bad things. For instance, explosives are illegal (homemade), but that didn’t stop tim mcvaugh or ted kazinski, nor has it stopped anyone else who chooses to do evil. The idea that more laws or legislation or more education will fix people is even more dangerous than communism, it is the human secularist idea that we (Americans/government) can change a man’s intent or heart. We can’t. There is only two things in this world, Mercy and Judgment. We don’t do judgment anymore, we try to rehabilitate. We need to punish wrong doers, not give them 3 hots and a cot with cable TV.