SIG SAUER - Never Settle

Gunfighter Moment – Pat McNamara

Social media has informed me that lots of people do not like LEOs. I have been bombarded by film clips of cops tuning up some POS. Sometimes the clips have subtitles or are put to music or include a narrative. A recent one was narrated by that pinko douche nugget Bill Maher. In his lefty diatribe, he pissed and moaned about how abusive LEOs are and referred to them as Jack Booted Thugs, because they wear assault kit. His rant included video clips of ass whoopings. As I watch these clips, one thing comes to my mind… 95% of the time, that is: “That shit licker deserved it.”

If I ever put my cops in a position where they have to question whether or not I am hostile, or compliant, because there is a clear distinction, I deserve to get throttled. If I am resisting arrest, and if I am not beaten to within an inch of my life by my LEOs, I will think of them as pussies.

Patrick McNamara
SGM, US Army (Ret)

Patrick McNamara spent twenty-two years in the United States Army in a myriad of special operations units. When he worked in the premier Special Missions Unit, he became an impeccable marksman, shooting with accurate, lethal results and tactical effectiveness. McNamara has trained tactical applications of shooting to people of all levels of marksmanship, from varsity level soldiers, and police officers who work the streets to civilians with little to no time behind the trigger.

His military experience quickly taught him that there is more to tactical marksmanship than merely squeezing the trigger. Utilizing his years of experience, McNamara developed a training methodology that is safe, effective and combat relevant and encourages a continuous thought process. This methodology teaches how to maintain safety at all times and choose targets that force accountability, as well as provides courses covering several categories, including individual, collective, on line and standards.

While serving as his Unit’s Marksmanship NCO, he developed his own marksmanship club with NRA, CMP, and USPSA affiliations. Mac ran monthly IPSC matches and ran semi annual military marksmanship championships to encourage marksmanship fundamentals and competitiveness throughout the Army.

He retired from the Army’s premier hostage rescue unit as a Sergeant Major and is the author of T.A.P.S. (Tactical Application of Practical Shooting). He also served as the Principle of TMACS Inc.

Gunfighter Moment is a weekly feature brought to you by Alias Training & Security Services. Each week Alias brings us a different Trainer and in turn they offer some words of wisdom.

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188 Responses to “Gunfighter Moment – Pat McNamara

  1. Tye Daughenbaugh says:

    Thanks Pat! But unfortunately you (and no one like you) will not be on my UOF review board, COC, local news outlet, or prosecutor’s office.

    Keep spreading the Good News!

  2. Trone abeetin says:

    Written like a true fascist

  3. MDCOA says:

    A cop beating pat within inches of his life would kill most people a hundred times over

  4. a. t. says:

    That’s awesome. Thanks.

  5. Rogue Male says:

    It’s disappointing that such simple-minded twaddle was posted on this site.

  6. Patrick says:

    What about the other five percent?.

  7. Tank says:

    Rogue Male, not too long ago SSD posted an article about LEO’s being detached from the gun debate and described them as entitled elitists who possess rights that average citizens don’t enjoy. There was a flood of anti-law enforcement posts and showed how even this community share a mutual disdain for law enforcement officers. You can argue that this article doesn’t necessarily have a place on this website, but the content however, is true and very misunderstood.

    Law enforcement has become more and more militarized due to the threats that are being faced on a nearly daily basis, this in turn has spurred outrage from the public and led to an “us vs. them” mentality with law enforcement. I was blasted on my comments related to the previous post on SSD, even by SSD themselves, but I think it is hard to argue with someone as distinguished and respectable as Pat McNamara. It is funny how when someone famous in the industry, such as Pat, makes comments like this, I am sure there will be much less LEO hate filled comments.

    • RealityCheck says:

      The threat from a 50-60% reduction in violent crime over the last forty years? Sorry Tank that excuse doesn’t fly. We’re safer then we’ve ever been, if these cops want to play soldier then can enlist.

      • Tank says:

        I wasn’t offering up excuses, I don’t need to defend the LEO community from assholes who don’t even understand what goes on, or from people who get their info on LEO’s from Youtube. And to clarify, many, many cops were soldiers first, so the comment about cops can enlist to play soldier is irrelevant, and ignorant. Even if you were a soldier, don’t assume you are the best of the best and you’re so much better.

        • Chris K. says:

          A fucking men. If you have never been an LEO, then your opinion only means so much. You have never done the job and ultimately have no room to talk. Same as a civilian trying to tell soldiers how to do their job, not effective.

          • SSD says:

            This is where I beg to differ. The unofficial motto of Law Enforcement is “To Protect And Serve.” Although the Supreme Court long ago gave LE a pass on a mandate to protect individual citizens, when the perception of the average citizen begins to be that LE is failing at its job, then it has.

            Average Joe does have a valid opinion about policing. In fact, his opinion is more important than the sworn officer’s. LE does not exist in a vacuum. It exists to serve society and its citizens. The question has become whether or not it is doing that effectively and with the respect that a law abiding citizen deserves.

            You cannot be a public servant if you have an entitlement mentality. Likewise, it is impossible to serve a society if you view its members as the enemy.

            Was a time when there were career criminals and there were citizens. LE knew who was what, as did the criminal class and the citizenry. Rarely did a “cop” encounter a citizen unless they were a victim of a crime. Right or wrong, nobody cared if the cops tuned up a criminal because it didn’t effect them. These days, law abiding citizens are increasingly caught up in ill planned and executed LE actions. Regardless of whether these are the result of malice or ineptitude, they make headlines. Until there is true accountability for these actions, there will be resentment among the citizenry. It’s unfortunate that we have let the actions of a few diminish the hard earned trust and reputations of the many in the Law Enforcement profession.

            As a society we want to trust our Police. Holding those accountable who are untrustworthy would go along way toward rebuilding that position. That means that cops are going to have to start throwing out the trash. The alternative is the perception that it is “us vs them.”

      • jimmt says:

        Actually that stat is incorrect , I don’t know what crap ass site u got 50 60 % from. Although statistically it’s some what lower, the severness of violent crimes and innocent casualties invoked are higher than ever , along with police officers killed being up by 30% this year. If your gonna post stat , post the source, or else your just an ignorant retard. Mine can be found on the fbi, homeland security, several independent research studies that are a crap load to list.

        • seans says:

          The 30% percent spike is compared to last year’s timeline. And 2013 had the lowest amount of officer deaths since world war 2. And the majority of deaths both this year and last year are due to traffic accidents, not violence.

        • Eric Elletson says:

          haha… How in the hell can you say that “If your gonna post stat , post the source, or else your just an ignorant retard” and then in the same breath list stats without properly sourcing them? “On the FBI, homeland security, several independent research studies that are a crap load to list.” is not how you source information.

          Remember what Eric from SSD always says… “Don’t type it, unless your willing to say it to their face”. or something to that effect. Especially for you to call any one a ignorant retard in such a hypocritical statement.

      • S1 says:

        Why is it when anyone sees someone in a military uniform the usual comment is “Thanks for your service.” When people see cops in uniform or on video, the cops are pigs, and assholes.

        Officers fight battles at home. On our own turf, in our own country. Over 100 officers die every year right here in America, in our backyards. They are not fighting wars overseas. It’s happening right here, yet everyone wants to second guess a cop.

        • Bman says:

          Very good point. My theory is that the same people that are uniformed voters take the same uninformed “I did nothing wrong” stories from people they hear some times from family members and see a single video from the other side of the country and say that it is proof of the BS stories they have been fed by cop haters. Remember most cop haters will rarely ever tell the story of the time police came and worked a burglary at their house or done something else for them. Even when you go to a domestic and win a supporter by locking up the aggressor, you still generate someone who will be out there bad mouthing cops. Even if someone doesn’t have a dirt bag history, there are still plenty of people that just like authority. Not just jack asses that can’t figure out how to stay out of the blue lights but even rich guys who think they are better than everyone else. It boils down to people having no what can happen in if those use of force situations aren’t resolved quickly, have no clue that any incident could be your last, and have a problem cops simply because they arrest people. It’s a tainted point of view due to ignorance of facts.

        • Nick says:

          Well, if said cop is trying to pull some bullshit, your damn right I’m gonna second guess him, However, this has only happened to me once, and I dealt with it by changing my uhf/vhf to his dispatch frequency, giving my identifier, and requesting state and sheriff dept respond to an officer impersonation.
          The first thing to fall out of this LEO’s sewer at my window was:
          Leo-Where are you headed?
          Me-Excuse me sir?
          leo- same question, louder
          Me- A few places, all of which are none of your business. Lets get to the reason for stop please.
          Leo-*hand on holster snap* Step out of the vehicle
          me-Fuck you, go back to your vehicle and wait for state
          And before he could reply my window was up and I had dispatch on my Vertex, his shoulder mic squelched me a lil when I keyed up, and his abusive attitude evaporated Ricky tick when his dispatch came back, to me, from his shoulder and my cup holder, wanting my call again stating unreadable static. Well, turns out he was a real officer after all, but you never can be too safe, and I felt plenty safe with the response I got from his co-workers (this will work from a cell phone too, and I would have used this avenue first, but no service)

          Second guess everything, or you are a sheep. cut and dry non debatable.

          • Tank says:

            Cool story bro, where did you read that ?

            • Nick says:

              Tank- Where are you employed? and is if of official capacity? If so I could refer you to an clearly needed accredited neurological/psychiatrist for eval. I would, just based on the 433 words in your posts above, strongly recommend a MM-PI at the least. That is if you have bullets with gun powder in them I demand it, but if your just some blowhard douche bag quit wasting your time, I will out think you every time. Specially if you were/are a tank commander. That would explain a lot of thick skulked ness.

              Oh and tank, you just read that cool story bro, it happened to me on highway 119east out of Colorado
              in Gilpin County, and had coverage in the local press

    • PNW_Tree_Octopus says:

      Oh no there will be LEO hate in the comments. Pat’s popular enough some neckbeards will try to derail the post.

    • Nick says:

      Well, Pat, indeed has a point. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I read pat’s statement like this : {IF LEO’s are clearly in the right, and I am clearly in the wrong, but still resisting or being violent, I hope they will take the action required to administer a deserved beating}.

      Well duh, show me an asset fully L7, and I’ll show you a man or woman who feels the same way. What he didn’t touch on, is what about when LEO’s are wrong? How about the story of an officer beating a 70’s+ woman in the street? That’s way past the line, and I would expect any human to know that.(there is actually a lot of this happening) So yeah, some hate is for sure reserved for LEO’s, Perhaps they would find it advantageous to hire better, kinder , less fucking crazy people. if they were at all concerned about the quantity of people whom hate them. I am aware that police brutality gets way more, longer lasting media spin per incident, in contrast to all the actually good things LEO’s do, just seem to be ignored, even when covered by media. which is why I said they should hire kinder people for LEO jobs. That being said,.
      Pat, your right there is a clear distinction between hostile and compliant, but if I see an LEO fist punching an unconscious elderly
      lady, the LEO is not going to have the time to make that distinction before my “La Sportiva” size 14 crushes his jaw. And I would proudly, PRANCE to my court date, excited to regale and entertain my assigned 12 with the tale of the big bad pig who ate some leather from my boot.

      • Tank says:

        Oh my god, please entertain us with more stories of your awesomeness. You would kick a cops jaw in, what a punk ass bitch. Hey this one time, I punched out Jesse Ventura. The Hangover movies were also modeled after my life.

        • Nick says:

          Tank-That’s too bad you feel that way. I would expect you to protect the civilian in my hypothetical altercation, over the now clearly criminal felonious EX-officer. I don’t want to be too rash with you, but do you have trouble focusing or reading/understanding clear print? Or are you one of the other two options?
          2-dangerous to society

          Or did you just misunderstand what i was getting at?
          There is a line, and yes even an officer can get booted in the jaw for crossing it. If I see an officer brutally beating anyone no matter the crime I get pissed. but that’s it. I go home and eat happy. The line is 75 year old lady. cross that one and, like I had said, via boot, brick, or blade Ill already be in action. And, quite frankly you would be criminally liable if you didn’t do the same. Look at some of my other posts before you get all offensive and douchie

          Everyone else- See how easy this is, they weed them selves out, you don’t have to wait for em to beat a senior citizen, or for IA to jump on their shit, you see a co-officer go over the line handle that shit, or don’t say fuckall when a private citizen does your fucking job for you. I agree I am awesome tank! thanks for taking notice.

          • Tank says:

            Haha, well man, you certainly have a way of painting a vivid picture. I am not looking at those scenarios from the view of a LEO, I am looking at the purely as described. I have been accused of laying it on thick at times, but you sir, get the title. I am pretty sure I am not a danger to society, so I may fall into the idiot category… now I am questioning myself.

            • Nick says:

              LMAO- touche tank! Indeed I was sub-prime guilty of fishing
              however that old lady beating pissed me right off man, and, if I had been present for that actual event Id be in jail or dead as we wouldn’t be now speaking. I am all for peace and am very non violent in nature (doesn’t mean I can’t send a good grouping, I’m just sad after if was for real. , but some things can not be ignored, and old lady beatings qualify, for sure, for on site execution in my opinion. I know this is delicate ground, and like I said, most who receive beatings, for sure deserve beatings.
              That old fucking lady for sure did not, even if she was mad and intent on harming the officer, she must have weighed 65 pounds, while he squatted on her chest and pounded her.. I have not looked far into the history or story of the video, but its clearly in new york, and if that video was real, that cop, from that video deserves a bullet or rope or something more painful

              • Tank says:

                Well I am glad you are here to talk, at least you can articulate sentences without feeling the need to post links to websites, just to get your point across. The more I read, the more I am starting to like your fiery expletive strewn rants and snarky comments.

                • Nick says:

                  Hay thanks tank! Your alright too man. I will refrain from link posting or further baiting to make points for sure, and I usually don’t post to these things at all, but for this topic, I have too many opinions, and see the actual value of a thread like this NOT becoming a standard cop-bashing fest, so here I am
                  Good to meet yall.

        • Nick says:

          lol Jesse Ventura

      • balais says:

        Same here.

        I would do that to anybody needlessly abusing someone. Except they would get my size 12 belleville through their fucking teeth.

    • balais says:

      “Law enforcement has become more and more militarized due to the threats that are being faced on a nearly daily basis”

      I disagree and the facts also disagree with you.

      Crime is at 1960s levels, including violent crime, yet police are more militarized than ever and gun proliferation is more common than ever.

      Probably because police agencies like to play operator with their multicam and surplus gear when their intended purpose is to SERVE THE PUBLIC.

      • Nick says:

        I am all about it balais! however, you can not debate the very valid point that a little girls rapist deserves more than a punch or two. Try and run an officer off the road to get away from a stop and get shot, wont see me sad about that, its the kids and old people man, and even more than that, the dogs. An officer is never in more danger then when his weapon is pointed at someones dog. A whole new can o worms, but I have seen several dog shootings where the dog was being nice. and needlessly killed by poorly selected employees. and I have seen ones where I would have shot the dog too, but I run against the grain, and I would NEVER let an officer shoot a non aggressive dog. He can drop a nine slug in my shoulder and get throat jacked for trying though, and again I would proudly defend the dogs life (which I wouldn’t have to do, if said dog shooting officer wasn’t drippy a piece of shit. Actually after typing it, I would use MORE force on a dick head trying to wrongfully shoot a dog, than I would defending most people I imagine

  8. RealityCheck says:

    The best way to avoid being called jack booted thugs is to not look like jack booted thugs and stop using their tactics.

    • Tank says:

      Oh wow, the ACLU, that is sure to be an unbiased article.

      • Tank says:

        Haha, good to see I am not the only one dropping the F bomb!

      • Tank says:

        Oh come on SSD, deleting comments now ? I liked your response to that guy.

      • Bman says:

        Plus 1. With no motives either.

      • Bman says:

        Btw, I just love seeing all these experts on law enforcement tactics for barricaded gunmen, hostage situations, high risk warrants, and active shooter incidents. It’s so refreshing to see that we have an abundance of people who are able to tell the future and know when an armored vehicle will be needed to allow officers to approach an armed suspects home to throw him a throw-phone or to allow bystanders escape safely past a suspect location. Certainly with all of these experts, we will never have another terror attack and any hostage situation or active shooter which can happen anywhere, anytime, will be resolved completely safely without the use of any tactic that might resemble one used by a military unit. I certainly hope these people are running for sheriff and applying to be the police chief in their town so we can benefit from their ability to predict the future.

    • Powderman says:

      Really, dude? Really? Well, since you talk about JBT’s and tactics, maybe this will shed some light on the subject…

      1. Why do I wear a jumpsuit? Because I can get out of it and throw it into a washing machine and not have to spend a mint on the drycleaners.
      2. Why do I wear nylon gear? Same reason. Ever try to clean leather?
      3. Why do I wear gloves? So that when I have to do a search incident to arrest and pull out some raw meth, black tar heroin, broken crack pipes, needles or other savory objects, I reduce the risk of contamination and subsequent illness.

      4. Why do I wear those boots? Less chance of turning my ankle–plus, the first time you step into some mud and leave a low-quarter shoe behind, you’ll be a believer as well.

      5. Why do I carry an M4 style carbine? Do a ride along, and roll on a call of a guy leaning out of a second story window with a rifle, pointing it at people. What would you take to respond to it? I thought so.

      6. Why do I carry a TASER? Would you rather that I shoot?

      7. Why do I seem somewhat curt, act like my head is on a swivel, and treat everyone who approaches me like I’m ready to attack them? Why am I so quick to apply the handcuffs? Why do I–and my brothers and sisters in uniform–act downright mean sometimes?

      Answer this: How many times in YOUR profession have some of your co-workers been shot and killed while trying to eat lunch? How many times have you pulled to a stop and had someone fire a rifle through your window?

      How many times do you enter a situation with the thought, “Will this be the one? Will this be the person who tries to kill me, simply because I wear a uniform, or a badge?”

      Yes, we do all of this. But I wonder why the media doesn’t jump on the thousands of times daily that we do GOOD things–the vast majority of police officers who actually take the oath seriously?

      So–go ahead and say what you want. It’s is your right to disagree, and to criticize–a right recognized by the same Constitution that I am sworn to uphold and obey You can hate my guts, if you want. Guess what? If you’re in trouble, go ahead and make that call to 911–and I’ll burn the road up to get there. I will stand in the way of harm to keep you safe–no matter who you are. If I have to, I will lay my life down to keep you and your family safe. Every minute of every day, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE.

      Why? Because I’m a cop. And that’s how we roll.

      We now return you to your regularly scheduled cop-bash, already in progress.

      • Nick says:

        Damn powderman is salty about it. I’m sure,powder, upholder of oaths and constitutional freedoms across the board, that this thread
        has 0.0% to do with you and your clearly in check morale compass. Tally ho.

        Like I said, If the boot doesn’t fit don’t put it on your foot. The people on this board know what your equipment is for. You don’t have to explain duty gear in defense, screw whoever made the militarism statement. That gear is a must for you guys, and anyone saying otherwise needs to move to Great Britain.

      • balais says:

        yeah, in the name of safety!

        Thats why small tiny towns need MRAPS and swat teams.

        Thats why marijuana smokers and NFL game gamblers get swat teamed.

        Thats why if you live in a impoverished neighborhood and are a minority, the police act like a occuyping army.

        Thats why police misconduct is not properly punished.

        One could go on and on, but you never invalidated the ACLU’s point. Being the bunch of “libruls” they are, im glad they’re sticking up for my rights. Im glad somebody is.

        Im an armed citizen thats how “I” roll. The 2nd amendment wasn’t created to hunt fucking deer.

      • Foggy_D says:

        Funny… That’s the same heroic story told to me by the motorcycle cop hiding behind someone’s bushes waiting to generate some revenue for the township. BTW, that’s the ONLY role he performs – does not handle any real calls. That’s how he rolls!

  9. Lasse says:

    I think he is just calling the general population for oversensitive pussies

  10. PNW_Tree_Octopus says:

    Just gained even more respect for you Pat, didn’t think that was possible.

  11. Patrick says:

    Make sure when you conduct those late night no knock warrants that you have the right house so you don’t get “tuned up” by somebody rightfully defending their home.

  12. Joe Cop says:

    Thanks Pat. Well said.

    The regular person cannot handle the thought or sight of violence. When they see a fight between a suspect and Cop taking place they have no concept of what they are seeing and many times they are supposed to realize though a subjects behavior, prefight indicators, and surrounding circumstances when a subject is going to fight. Officers are allowed to hit first and a regular person sees this as an Officer who beat the subject without being hit first but people don’t realize we don’t have to wait for you to swing, we can stop you before you get to that point.

    • Nick says:

      oh hell yes you can. at your discretion., and you had damn well better if anyone’s safety depends on it. Beat the suspect to death for America, but they better be really fucking guilty if you want me to support a beating. if LEO’s were attempting to disarm a suspect that had the upper hand, I as your fellow citizen and human would not hesitate to act, and assist you to safely get em loaded in the car.

      Likewise if said LEO holds a position, constitutionally, sworn to oath, employee of a sheriff dept, especially, and engaged in the act of fist punching an unconscious 75 year old grandma, in the street, I would not hesitate to act to protect the lady.

      And yes, Joe, most regulars should perhaps stay out of it, or just help the officer as a rule.

      There is still quite a few of us Americans capable of correctly reading a situation, and acting in a timely manner. You might be a protector of your oath and people, but I guarantee you’ve met some who aren’t, and those are the whom I am speaking about.

      All I’m saying, Joe, is its not all the time the citizen fucking up and getting properly beat, printed, and booked. no one cares about the meth heads or the hookers man. Punch one for me.

      But, if an officer were to *god forbid* punch a confused extremely elderly non English speaking woman in front of me, until she was sleeping, and then some? I don’t give a fuck if she assaulted said officer with her bingo bag and umbrella, while resisting arrest. if said officer chooses to crouch on her chest and go ape-shit on her face….
      SAID OFFICER should expect a swift disarming, pistol whipping, face stomping, rock throwing, or any other means required to save the woman from the CRIMINAL/LEO. if it costs the psychopath LEO/criminal his life, that’s one bad apple out of the sworn to oath basket

  13. jimmt says:

    When ur mentality is “it’s not my problem” and turn your head to what’s going on in your community, then u give police that power. Law enforcement was designed to assist not babysit , no matter how much u think your taxpayer dollars go to them. And when it does become your problem , you cry about it. Public safety is everyone’s responsibilty. U want all the rights in the world but don’t want to account for them.

  14. Danke says:

    My favorite was the guy on the football field.

  15. Rogue Male says:

    Whether the “perp” is “guilty” or innocent or somewhere in between, the bottom line is that an LEO beating said perp “within an inch of his life” is using excessive force and breaking the law. Try justifying that behaviour in court. Anyone advocating that kind of behaviour is an idiot.

    Are LEOs really helped by presenting this simple fact any other way?

    Does a free citizen really have to be “compliant” to anyone absent lawful authority and probable cause to justify having a gun pointed at you and orders being given/shouted to you?

    Just asking.

    • Tank says:

      Well since your asking, the answer is yes. You do have to be compliant. This isn’t some anarchist fucking third world country. What kind of hippy anti-establishment bullshit is that anyway, there is peace, and lower crime rates because police do what their name implies, they police criminals. I am sure if your daughter was just raped, you wouldn’t care if the cops took a feel extra swings when subduing the attacker. You will probably never be on the receiving end of a taser, baton, pepper spray, or closed fist punch so why are you defending criminals and grouping them in with lawful citizens. Sure mistakes happen, there is bad intelligence, wrong people get targeted, but the overwhelming majority of police and LEO officers act professionally, do their job with respect and integrity, and the only people that get “beat down” are fucking piece of shit criminals. Like I said, I am sure if it was a loved one of yours, you would be less concerned with the well being of the attacker.

      Again, this sounds like a classic us versus them argument, that has been escalating is recent years. Have you ever read into social identity theory ? This is the same way in which prejudices are formed on the actions of a few, and are targeted at an entire group. Such as most terrorists are Muslim, so therefore all Muslims are terrorist or evil. It becomes an us versus them, in group and out group mentality, that fosters hate and mistrust, ultimately leading to a breakdown of dialogue and understanding.

      What is your solution to this “epidemic” of abusive, power hungry police ? Should we fire anyone who ever lost their temper, pointed a gun at someone innocent, or raised his voice and made a child cry ? You bitch when they do their job, but you would be the first one to complain when nobody shows up after you call 911.

      • Rogue Male says:

        (A) Cops aren’t above the law.

        (B) Cops have to adhere to the same standards for use of force as a private citizen.

        (C) Cops and private citizens are all civilly and criminally liable for their use of force. You do not want to find yourself in a court explaining the justification you had for `beating down` anyone. It`s expensive.

        (D) Educate yourself by reading Rory Miller and Lawrence Kane, Scaling Force: Dynamic Decision-making Under Threat of Violence. They at least are able to address these issues like adults. Try emulating them.

        • Tank says:

          Rogue Male, How am I not addressing this issue like an adult ? Did I offend you by using coarse language, is that not politically correct ? Whether or not you agree with my language or the way in which I present a point, that does not negate the arguement. I do not need to emulate anyone, I don’t need role models or examples to lead me on the right path. We could sit here all day and have a dick measuring contest about who’s who, and what we’ve done in the past. But can you truly say that you have never done anything against the law ? You never punched anyone, got in a bar fight, were speeding when late to work, etc ? You are quick to point out that LEO officers are just average citizens, but yet, when they get in trouble they lose their job and ruin their careers. Does that same punishment happen to the non LEO citizen ? You cannot compare police and average citizens, they are in two completely different circumstances. Citizens are not charged with stopping crime, dealing with drugged up, drunk, or otherwise hostile people, serving warrants, etc… Who are you to say what is the appropriate amount of force. Are you some fucking legal wizz who can determine the appropriate amount of force by watching a Youtube video of a cop who is doing this or that to a suspect ? Have you ever been placed in a stressful situation, often life threatening, and been forced to make split second decisions regarding life and force ? Probably not, you are probably that piece of shit sitting there watching as a drugged up criminal beats the shit out of a cop because he has an outstanding warrant and doesn’t want to go back to jail. You probably think, haha the pig deserved it. Stop being such a fucking thug hugger and defend the people who are servng you, otherwise continue watching stupid ass Youtube videos thinking you know jack shit about the issue fucko, is that adult enough for you ?

          • Rogue Male says:

            You really should read that book I cited. Soon.

            • Tank says:

              Rogue Male, here is a great review of the book: “In Scaling Force Kane and Miller introduce you to the full range of options, from skillfully doing nothing to applying deadly force. They realistically guide you through understanding the limits of each type of force, when specific levels may be appropriate, the circumstances under which you may have to apply them, and the potential cost, legally and personally, of your decision.”

              I obviously didn’t read the entire book since my last comment, but, I learned application of force and force continuum when I was 18 years old and joined the military. I think after 20+ years in military, government, and law enforcement I am well versed in what these authors have to offer. Thanks for the book suggestion, but I think I might start writing my own book. These authors bio’s do not even come close to that of Mr. McNamara, and are not that impressive, thanks, but find something better to cite. Sorry if that came off a little arrogant, I don’t want to hurt your feelings.

        • Nick says:

          rogue-its no where near expensive enough. the number of open cases says it all. If were going to give caffeine drinking animals guns and sugar and power, their fuck ups have to cost them dearly. And if they don’t like the risk vs. rewards then go work at kinkos. or be sure your use of force is in check. Like the first convicted brutality by a person in a position of auth/trust should cost them a finger digit or some twisted shit. Lets see how many suddenly have no problem with much less use of force.

      • Eric Elletson says:

        Now, I’m far from liberal, but even I have been roughed up by the LEO without probable cause. Afterward they even apologized, said “they where both in the Army too” and “that I was probably a really cool guy”. they didn’t give me a ticket, didn’t take me to jail, and even admired my firearm as they gave it back; advising me not to chamber a round until they left the parking lot. What was the crime? “You made us pull you over on our way to lunch”; no shit.

        If I hadn’t been so compliant or ex Army like too where, things would not have turned out as well. I believe in always making officers job as easy as possible. they have a dangerous job and they don’t know who I am or what I can do. I Know allot of buddy’s that went strait into law enforcement after serving in OEF/OIF combat zones, they miss the military and they are looking for action.

        We are getting far and away from what police where and are meant to be. Some of those ass-clowns deserve a mud-hole stomped into them, but it is undeniable that it is becoming far more common the wrong person, wrong place, wrong time scenario. we have the The Posse Comitatus Act for a reason. If the situation is that serious the national guard can be called in. other than that there is no reason our police force should turn into a by county/city/state paramilitary unit.

        But treat officers like they want to be treated and you should be fine. And if there is ever a time you truly feel like an officer is committing a crime, why don’t you stop moaning about law suits and how someone should do something, put down your freaking camera and stop him!

      • Eric Elletson says:

        Now, I’m far from liberal, but even I have been roughed up by the LEO without probable cause. Afterward they even apologized, said “they where both in the Army too” and “that I was probably a really cool guy”. they didn’t give me a ticket, didn’t take me to jail, and even admired my firearm as they gave it back; advising me not to chamber a round until they left the parking lot. What was the crime? “You made us pull you over on our way to lunch”; no shit.

        If I hadn’t been so compliant or ex Army like they* too where, things would not have turned out as well. I believe in always making an officers job as easy as possible. they have a dangerous job and they don’t know who I am or what I can do. I Know allot of buddy’s that went straight into law enforcement after serving in OEF/OIF combat zones. They miss the military and they are looking for action.

        We are getting far and away from what police where and are meant to be. Now, that not to say some of those ass-clowns deserve a mud-hole stomped into them, but it is undeniable that it is becoming far more commonplace for the wrong person, wrong place, wrong time scenario. we have the The Posse Comitatus Act for a reason. If the situation is that serious the National Guard can be called in. Other than that, there is no reason our police force should turn into a by county/city/state paramilitary unit.

        But, treat officers like they want to be treated and you should be fine. And if there is ever a time you truly feel like an officer is committing a crime, why don’t you stop moaning about law suits and how someone should do something, put down your freaking camera and stop him!

      • Patrick says:

        I’d like to comment specifically on the fact you said “if your daughter was just raped, you wouldn’t care if the cops took a feel extra swings when subduing the attacker”.

        Emotionally I’d love to see it. Any normal person would. But take away the emotion and you’re left with a criminal lawyer’s dream. Any half decent criminal lawyer is going to take that right to the bank and get a reduced sentence or a plea deal or whatever and mr rapist is going to get a reduced sentence or probation or whatever can be wrung from the sponge. So for about 2 minutes of “extra swings” per say, the guy shaves off a few years from a sexual assault charge.

      • Eric Elletson says:

        Some people tend to not realize that a group is not a single identity. Any group is made up of regular people with separate identities. those separate identities come with prejudges, trauma, ideals, social skills etc… each individual is responsible for their actions alone. Its ignorance that dehumanizes individuals by lumping them all into one single over simplified identity.

        Law enforcement officers just like military members “ARE” held accountable for their actions. The U.C.M.J. has seen many atrocities from service men that have landed them swiftly in a military prison which is the furthest thing from cushy. does this mean all service men and woman rape murder and are thief’s? of course not. LEO’s are no different. they are our brothers from another mother, and everyone has that family member that is a little crazy; but we still love our family.

        You are right Tank, “You bitch when they do their job, but you would be the first one to complain when nobody shows up after you call 911”. I get tired of bystanders always complaining or exaggerating for 15 seconds of fame and a good law$uit.

        If a few officers are beating my pregnant wife or punching my handcuffed child, I am going to take action. whether that means drawing down on them or even putting a couple round in them. Is that excessive? I would have to explain that in court just like they would. but with that said I am not searching for A cop to prove this point to.

        We are all just human, flaws and all. As long as their is mutual respect and accountability, this wouldn’t merit as much attention. but as long as there are Johnnie Cochran and Al Shartons in the world, and know it all douches trying to prove a point, this will continue to be an issue.

      • Nick says:

        Tank- ^That’s good^ Excellent post man, and no, I want you to punch the rapist more than a few times extra. Drag that piece of shit behind your cruiser by “accident” for all, I am sure, most of America gives a fuck
        …:left him cuffed to the bumper? ..hmmmm..good.:…

        As long as you personally saw the dude raping whomever, I’m ok with some off the books justice, save WE THE PEOPLE some money. You and your co workers would be {Judge Jury Executioner} position in the event of a SHTF shutdown, why not practice a lil bit.

        I only notice, the way on the crazy extreme out of line beatings, and I fail to see an US and THEM, in this at all. unless the US is everyone in the United States that is not a corrupt officer setting
        a constant double standard by acting above the law he’s sworn to uphold.

        Everyone-If the boot don’t fit don’t wear it

        OFFICERS- I am post positive 90%+ sworn to oath are good trustworthy people. Those of you who have served anywhere as officers or abroad as soldiers for sure get my thanks and greatest respect. For, far to many actions to dream of listing within this bandwidth. But you guys gotta watch that Plus or minus 8%. Don’t wait for IA to do it, get em the fuck out out, then when someone does get left cuffed to the bumper *lol* it wont be such a big deal over time

      • Foggy_D says:

        I guess that get to the root of the problem. Namely, police are empowered to enforce the laws, by apprehending criminals and bringing them before the courts to be tried by their peers.
        LE is NOT empowered to mete out justice as they see fit, be it an aged woman or a serial rapist. That is what LE has forgotten and why they are viewed as the enemy by many.

    • Nick says:

      It will change Rogue, and I have to be honest, I will be stoked when it does. If your given a clearly unlawful order at gunpoint, you shouldn’t have to wait for a beating and court. In fact any officers with the officer who issues you illegal orders should walk away, let some of the super crazy loose cannon cops show up in dumpsters, we would have fresh new cops. We the people REQUIRE laws in place
      that allow for us to legally defend ourselves from bad cops. No one can debate they are out there, being all shady and corrupt. making shit rough for thier co workers. All I want is whats right, and LEO’s should be held to a higher standard, I.e. fuck up and get the chair or needle, or better yet in the brutality cases, let the familys of the victims at the bad apples for a what was it called?…, a tune up

  16. LawDog says:

    Pat can think of them as pussies. I will think of them as professionals. I don’t know anything about Mr. McNamera other than what I’ve read on SSD, and I have no reason to doubt his qualifications as a firearms instructor. However what he’s done here is provide yet another example of how ones proficiency with firearms or long illustrious military career provides no foundation for a persons grasp of the constitution or civil rights.

    A police officer has no more authority to physically handle a suspect than is required to subdue and restrain them to complete the arrest. Undoubtedly there are many situations where this requires a great deal of physical force, however that’s a far cry from breathing them within an inch of their life. There are no “freebie” shots to throttle someone if they are resisting arrest. To suggest otherwise is to approve of battery with a badge. Officers that are unable to restrain themselves from beating suspects out of frustration have no business being in law enforcement.

    • Nick says:

      thats what i failed at saying. lol thanks

    • balais says:

      Exactly and by supporing “knowledge bumps”, you essentially support a Stasi-esque authoritarian police force.

      We have rule of law for a reason. even for the true shitbags. Without protections to them, we all lose protection and our constitution becomes imperiled.

      Most people dont understand “minimal force necessary to solve the problem”, hence, the reason why you have either police abuse, or abuses of the constitution in the name of “safety”.

      (and fuck all of you who support this kind of authoritarian bullshit. Id square off with you just as a matter of fucking principle)

      • Back Spin says:

        The legal standard for use of force by police is not “minimal force,” rather “reasonable force.” That standard was established by the US Supreme Court in Graham vs. Connor. Big difference between minimal and reasonable force. The courts recognized that officers cannot be expected to know the precise amount of force to be used in a situation that is “tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving.” The force used has to be reasonable from the perspective of an officer of similar training and experience (more experienced cops get held to a higher standard), according to the facts known by the officer at the time (not 20/20 hindsight), and without regard to underlying motives (good intentions do not validate an unlawful use of force). Also the force used has to be in accordance with the law and department policy at the time of the incident.

    • Powderman says:

      Well said. And I will add that no one despises bad cops more than good cops–mainly because being bullied just goes against the grain of most people.

      The majority of us do not do this as a job–but more as a passion; a way to protect those who can’t, and to take an active stand against criminals, thugs and everyone like them.

      I’m like this: I give far more warning tickets than real ones; I have let people slide when arresting them would cause them pain and suffering (examples: a mother trying to make ends meet, clear record except for driving on a suspended license, pulled over driving between job one and job two; a guy pulled over, found to be DUI–drunk because he just buried his son. His family members came and got the car–I drove him home.)

      I am known more for talking a situation down than for jumping in someone’s face. And why not? My job, my duty is to enforce the law, and I don’t have to be an a-hole to do it. It’s not personal, it’s business.

      Most officers realize that. The bad ones make themselves known quickly–and they are addressed quickly as well. Yes–there are some bad ones who fall through the cracks. As a rule–they don’t last very long.

  17. Doesntmatter says:

    What we need to understand as a whole is that we aren’t capable of truly understanding one side or the other. Most, if not all comments are based on generalizations(using just a few examples to typify a whole group). Here are some generalized points that might get people thinking.

    -does anybody, lawfully or not, want to be arrested?

    -how many citizens who are under arrest claim they are innocent of any wrong doing?

    -how difficult is to to place someone in handcuffs if they do not want to be cuffed up?

    -how violent of a world do we rrrrreally live in? What level of violence are we exposed to on a day to day? Is it different seeing this violence in the US versus experiencing it overseas? How would this shape our approach to the world?

    -are we safer because of how the status quo is now or are we safer because of proactive policing? Keep in mind how statistics can be manipulated.

    I never comment here. Only posing these questions because I have the slightest bit of faith in humanity and think we as a whole need to understand why these situations happen on a macro and micro level. Whateva

  18. KW says:

    Thanks Pat for making a point in your usually entertaining way. I look forward to more training.

    The same people who rail against the left for their dishonest, inaccurate, incomplete, and made up claims on firearm issues, do exactly the same when berating Law Enforcement.

    Who allows themselves to be educated by Hollywood and the Media? Trust your personal knowledge and experience. If you don’t know about something, learn about it and experience it. Get the honest facts first and then take action based on real experience.

    It’s sad to see that so many opinions are based on hearsay, emotion, edited videos, and no investigation. Sadly many people only choose to see what supports their opinion. In my experience, this was the hallmark of the left. Unfortunately this same thought process has permeated my community here.

    By the way, I am a grateful American, a combat veteran, and a police officer. I am your ally and not your enemy.

    P.S. “Militarization” is just as much socialist BS as “Assault Weapon”.

    • Austin says:

      Thank you. For what it is worth, there are a lot of us out there who still view you as an ally.

    • Rogue Male says:

      Remember boys and girls, “if you need to level a gun at a boy scout’s head, you’re doing it wrong.”

      • Tank says:

        Why do people constantly post links to other articles. If you cannot figure out how to articulate your thoughts and comments, don’t post shit where I have to leave this page. That’s like uploading your comment as a PDF file, then making me download it to read it. Shit, paraphrase, or even plagiarize the damn article, it shouldn’t be that hard to take whats rattling around in your head and type it out into some half way legible, somewhat grammatically correct sentences in paragraph format. Or even easier, copy/paste function, it works wonders.

        Not to mention, I have Google too. You could go back and forth for days posting links to articles for, or against, any topic. You post one where a cop did something stupid, I can find one where a cop saved lives. You just blasted me for acting like an adult and addressing issues like an adult. Adults articulate themselves and can participate in debate where they provide their own rationale and thoughts.

        • Rogue Male says:

          I think the link is what you sleuths call a “lead” to “evidence”. I just figured a crack crime buster knew how to right click-open in a new tab. My bad.

          • Tank says:

            I am just to damn lazy. My fingers were occupied by twinkies while I skimmed through the latest Soldier of Fortune magazine.

    • Eric Elletson says:

      Thank you for your service both as a vet and an officer. But you have to admit how laughable it is when officers go tactiCOOL crazy. especially when they are overweight and have never served a day in the military.

      I agree that “militarization” just as “assault weapon” are goofy words over used by leftist to beat a dead horse when they have no idea what they are talking about. But these words do describe real things. Almost anything can be used to assault somebody, but there are such things as weapons designed specifically for assault purposes whether its application be defensive or not. you can not argue that the police force an many metropolitan areas has seen a radical change in the past ten years or so to what could be considered paramilitary.

      I was in Iraq and I know why we had the gear, tools and weapons we did. It wasn’t to look cool it was to perform a very specific job. with all due respect the American cities and suburbs are not Iraq or Afghanistan. This is a small part of the problem, and why it is as much a controversy as it is.

      • Tank says:

        I think Chicago is nearing Iraq status, or maybe Juarez.

        • Eric Elletson says:

          I don’t even think it compares to Mexico. To say so would give to much credit to teenage gangbangers whom cant aim or shoot to save their own life’s, literally.

          It is a growing problem, but one that was brought on purely from liberal ideology and over exaggerated by the same. Chicago doesn’t even place on the FBI top 25 for murder per capita; and when compared to a place like Ciudad Juarez, it doesn’t even register as a dangerous place.

          But, then again, that’s my point. America is not a true war zone by any measure. Do Police Officers have a dangerous job, yes. Do some punks deserve a boot in the neck, yes. do some Police Officers go over board sometimes, yes.

          Now if my City became Ciudad Juarez, I would Join the force and be all for gearing up military style and kicking crimes butt like Robocop; but we’re not there yet fortunately… unfortunately

  19. LEO/Army says:

    Thank you, sir.

  20. Ronald says:

    I think the point is that if an LEO asks you to stop, then stop. Don’t make them chase you around your car, scream/bitch/berate them, or in anyway resist/give off even the hint that you are a threat. Remember the LEO does not know you personally. He has no way to know your intensions except for the snapshot in time he has from your actions.

  21. Wlddogmp says:

    Police have become more militarized because the federal government has given them incentive to be. They are offered military vehicles and equipment that 99.9% of law wnforcment will never need. At the same time the media and politicians who want their support are kissing their asses and telling them how great they are and what heroes they are. Law enforcement has bought the hype and think that they are Americas elite and that every ” civilian ” is a threat that must be treated with immediate hostility. Maybe if cops started acting less like the thugs and POS that they are supposed to be taking off the street more people would respect law enforcement. Until then the more law enforcement tries to intimidate everyone the more people will resist and fight back both on the streets and in courts.

    • Explosive Hazard says:

      Agree. The days of officer friendly are long gone. If LEO’s are wondering why there is a growing distrust of law enforcement they could start by looking in the mirror first, then looking over at their partner. If more of these good and honest cops (and I know there are many out there) would help police up their own instead of covering up for them then public trust would increase. Furthermore there is a growing militarization of law enforcement in this country. Example, department of education has a special response team ie SWAT. What sense does that make? Same with the Bureau of Land Management, Fish and Game, and many other federal agencies that have little to do with law enforcement. Should SWAT teams exists? Yes, but in much smaller numbers.

      I personally think large cities with populations over a million should have dedicated SWAT teams, Sherriff departments and a few government agencies such as the FBI, Border Patrol, Department of Energy and a few others. If the ATF wants to conduct a raid for illegal weapons then contact local Sherriff SWAT, or the FBI. If ICE needs to conduct a raid then the same should apply. Utilize the local forces instead of everyone arming up and building up their own little paramilitary units. And stop with the no knock raids!

      • Shooter says:

        If the ATF wants to conduct a raid for illegal weapons then contact local Sherriff SWAT, or the FBI. If ICE needs to conduct a raid then the same should apply. Utilize the local forces instead of everyone arming up and building up their own little paramilitary units…….

        most of the time they do

  22. xpoqx says:

    Somebody earlier stated that the vast majority of police officers are professoionals. My question, why professional INTEGRITY is not a value shared by all law enforcement officers? If everyone is a “professional” then why are those who routinely preform poorly or who have been corrupted allowed to continue to exist on the police force? It’s my understanding that “professionals” wouldn’t allow others to reflect poorly on their feild. Supposed to police everyone including other LEOs, not just “us”

    • Tank says:

      Are you fucking kidding me, every single fucking industry and business has shitbags and people that perform poorly and are allowed to continue working there. This is not some phenomenon only seen in Law Enforcement. Do you expect only employee of the month type people to work in the United States ? Why is honesty and integrity not a value shared by everybody everywhere. That has to be the stupidest fucking comment I have read yet. Do you routinely fire people that don’t cut it in your book ?

      • Trone abeetin says:

        Yes but every other industry confers no rights to end somebody’s life or curtail their freedoms.

        • matty says:

          Yeah the kid who is a shortage at McDonald’s won’t kill my dog or flashback a baby. Or choke a dude to death. Or beat s homeless man to death.

  23. Common Sense says:

    I know plenty of people who have gone from the Army to being Police Officers. There overwhelming opinion of the people they now work with- “most of them just want the right to hurt people”. That’s a direct quote from a senior detective I know.

    There are good cops and bad cops, just as in any other profession- but trying to justify ANY excessive use of force as professional is disgusting. The abuse of citizens is on the rise, as are unlawful killings- murders with a badge.

    That doesn’t mean that all police are out to get you, but in any action they should not just be held to the standard of all citizens- but to a HIGHER standard. “There job is hard”, to bad, that’s what they are paid for.

    McNamara, you are the POS for advocating punitive beatings.

    • Tank says:

      I would love to be there to see the outcome of you calling McNamara a piece of shit to his face. It would be fucking epic.

      • Patrick says:

        He’d be the one going to jail. Maybe the police would “tune him up” in the process.

        • Tank says:

          Holy fucking shit, just because you beat someones ass or get in a little fist fight doesn’t mean you need to go to jail. What kind of backwards ass liberal world did you grow up in. I grew up on a farm, out in the country, and people resolved their differences by beating ass. Are you going to be a whiny ass bitch and call the cops everytime someone punches you or shoves you at the bar or anywhere else. That’s the problem, now people like you, who think everyone who fights should go to jail, make people go fucking crazy and shoot people over stupid trivial shit. Shit that could probably be hashed out in the alley way. You suck it up, ice your fat lip, and go on with your life. Fucking pussies, everyone with their damn cell phone cameras running around like wanna-be journalists, posting shit to social media and running to the cops with “evidence.” Some people just need an ass beating to get set straight. I’ve beat some ass, and I’ve had my ass handed to me, I am sure it won’t be the last time. But I never went to press charges and ruin someone’s life with a fucking assault charge. Grow the fuck up.

          • Rogue Male says:

            You’re so *rugged*!!

          • matty says:

            I’d like to do that to him too. Being so pro cop that you’ve blind to the problems that pervade the profession you can go fuck yourself. ‘Oh they’ve dirty hippies! Oh they’ve liberals!’ Who gives a fuck. Just cause you get a badge doesn’t mean your shit don’t stink.

          • balais says:

            yeah because thats how civilized human beings behave when rational discourse can be used instead.

            Grow up first

            That is why there is the rule of law: to prevent law enforcement from abusing those who are innocent until proven guilty. Period.

            i mean fuck, imagine being beat within a inch of your life despite being innocent. how would you feel?

          • Common Sense says:

            That’s not what this article is about at all. This is about the police beating the hell out of people. We’ve all (most of us anyway) been in a fight. Shit happens. Shit cannot happen when you are the police. It doesn’t matter how pissed off you are. That’s the whole purpose of having police- so that force is used as a last resort and minimized. Otherwise we have a society that goes around handing out punishment without due process, basically no rule of law.

            Secondly, if McNamara can’t handle being called a POS without assaulting someone- then he shouldn’t have called anyone else that. I doubt he is barricaded in a bunker waiting for them to attack. These are words, we use them instead of lead pipes to make a point.

    • S1 says:

      So you know plenty of people who have gone from the Army to being a police officer. You quote one detective, and that qualifies as plenty. I’m sure that one detective has seen plenty of crimes and solved plenty of homicides too.

      • Common Sense says:

        I’m not going to write a whole blog about every conversation that I’ve had. I also stated that I am not anti-police. I think there are plenty of great cops out there who want to help keep the peace and do excellent work.

        My statement was a response to the original article, and the general comments on the board at the time I posted- specifically that police should be able to “teach someone a lesson”, and that they are weak if they don’t throw their weight around.

        The police don’t get to pass a sentence or hand out punishment. EVER. That is not their role in the system. Even one extra punch is one too many. MINIMUM force is all they are supposed to use.

        Sometimes the minimum force IS deadly force, or beating the hell out of someone who is a threat. I fully recognize that, but that is a final and last resort.

  24. Dev says:

    I think you guys don’t realise how lucky you are that you live in a country like the US of A where your government actually gives a damn about civil rights and the courts are (somewhat) impartial and separate from the government / executive.

    Please don’t complain until you’ve actually lived in a country where the law doesn’t grant you the freedom to defend yourself and bear arms, the law enforcement there can lock you up indefinitely without needing to press charges and where Sharia Law is actually used in courts and the judicial system.

    • Rogue Male says:

      “Please don’t complain until you’ve actually lived in a country where the law doesn’t grant you the freedom to defend yourself and bear arms, the law enforcement there can lock you up indefinitely without needing to press charges and where Sharia Law is actually used in courts and the judicial system.”

      Depends who you ask.

      • Dev says:

        I don’t know what point you’re trying to make there, but if you need to link to an article filled with memes to illustrate and furnish your arguments, I think you’re a bit desperate and grasping for straws.

        • Tank says:

          Thank god, someone else, I thought I was the only one tired of clicking on stupid ass links to pointless websites and pictures.

        • Rogue Male says:

          Ah…a Low Information Voter. I guess I need to spell it out for you:

          The link was about Nakoula Basseley Nakoula. He was arrested in his home in the dead of night and paraded him before media cameras because he made a video no one watched that was critical of Islam. The 9/11/12 riots and attack on the Benghazi CIA installation were blamed on his video, rather than on AQ (that’s Al-Qaida). The media had been alerted to his arrest beforehand. Authorities claimed he was being arrested regarding parole violations, but the arrest came after the Obama administration had publicly blamed his film for the violence. He was kept in jail for a year before being released.

          Only in the United States of Obama!

          • Dev says:

            I love how condescending you start of. Perhaps i’m not even from the United States of America, hence not as insular as you are and I probably don’t think that my place of residence somehow means it’s the centre of the known universe.

            Listen matey, if you’ve typed all that out earlier it would’ve been of a much greater service than linking to all sorts of irrelevant bullshit pictures that serve zero fucking purpose highlighting your (perhaps perceived) notion that law enforcement in the US of A is getting out of hand and civil rights is all about gone.

            Last I checked, you’re still entitled to your Miranda Rights when arrested, you’re still given a trial by jury / peers, and you still elect your officials that govern and steer your country.

            I’ve been to places and lived there for periods of times where all of that is practically nonexistent.

            This leads to my next question, besides armchair internet activism and posting irrelevant bullshit links on irrelevant webpages online,


            Go out and change the world. Don’t do it online.

          • Tank says:

            Thanks for the clarification, which wasn’t asked for. It doesn’t have anything to do with police of LEO’s abusing criminals or using excessive force. You are so fucking far off topic its not even funny. Stop looking for dumb shit which isn’t related and try typing, type out some sort of reasoned debate like a big boy. We are all talking about cops beating someone’s else, and you’re off in left field talking about Islamic critics being arrested by the Obama administration.

          • JohnC says:

            “Ah…a Low Information Voter….The link was about Nakoula Basseley Nakoula. He was arrested in his home in the dead of night and paraded him before media cameras because he made a video no one watched that was critical of Islam.”

            In the interests of improving voter information:

            Nakoula isn’t in jail because he produced a tasteless video lampooning Muhammad and the Administration decided to cover up Benghazi or appease Islamists.

            Did the administration tip off the USPO? Maybe.

            But Nakoula (a/k/a “Sam Bacile,” the name under which he produced the video) is in jail because ANYONE on supervised release with a bank fraud conviction, owing $700K in restitution, and a history of using alias, would abso-f*ing-lutely face revocation if, in violation of his terms of release, he were caught using a false driver’s license and concealing financial transactions from the USPO, and using a computer to do so, and tricking actors into appearing in his video on the pretense that it was a desert epic and then dubbed in the anti-islam dialogue afterwords.
            Almost anyone in such a position would (a) routinely be arrested rather than summoned (use of false identities suggests flight risk), and (b) typically face more jail time even for offenses that would never be federally prosecuted as separate crimes.

            You can point to the Mollen Commission et al or problems with the BLM (among myriad other examples) if you want to discuss LE and administrative corruption. There’s no need to make stuff up on the back of a scumbag.

    • Mike Nomad says:

      Greece wasn’t using Sharia Law when I lived there in the 1970s.

  25. Tank says:

    Hmmm…. SSD is strangely quiet on this issue….It just doesn’t feel right without SSD telling me I am wrong.

  26. Diesel says:

    Well the next time you need the police, just call your local crackhead. See how that works out for you.

  27. Sponge Bob says:

    I am waiting for Larry Vickers to come in and call everyone an ass clown who doesn’t agree with Pat. Pat you are a badass sir. I love your books…and your videos.

  28. Mike Nomad says:

    Can’t resist this Troll-House Cookie…

    The problems with the OP are so obvious, I’m wondering if this isn’t some sort of Candid Camera thing.

    Mr. McNamara obviously knows how to run his guns, and operate in the field. His PT articles in Recoil are fucking great.

    However, like a number of other folks commenting, I was disappointed that I wasn’t getting a Gunfighter Moment that had more of the greatness mentioned above.

    A number of people have pointed out that policing is a civilian (non-military) function. And that police should be operating in the general direction of Serving And Protecting. You may not like that take, but, it is the correct one.

    No one is questioning the need for police to use enough force to neutralize a threat. And as much as some would like to marginalize people who complain about the “militarization” of LEOs, sorry, but that is what is happening. And I would have to say, at least some of that militarization is for good reason.

    My informal observation is that the “middle” is going out of the range of crimes committed. Increasingly, the perps of the worst are mentally unstable, and able to harness crushing amounts of technology. Yes, overall crime rates have been declining steadily for quite some time, and are currently quite low. However, the severity of some of the shit going down seems to keep getting worse.

    At a base level, an asymmetrical response gets you little more than chewed up. People commenting here are pissed about the militarization of LEOs, when do we get the fur flying, and start talking about how the military is increasingly put in policing roles? There are aspects of that I find are just as much of a fucked proposition.

    Ash is indeed correct about getting your buttons pushed. When you put on a uniform (Military, LEO or both), you can’t have any buttons to push. That’s part of what The Training is for. You are in uniform, and you are expected to behave… uniformly. That’s a tough thing to do. I had to try for years, and I was not always successful. Thankfully, my failures were minor, and I was able to learn from them.

    The Big Problem occurs when an individual’s failure is great enough that those on the receiving end of that failure then characterize the behavior of all who wear the same uniform of that individual as the same as that individual.

    Tank’s mis-characterization of the thread where all the “LEO-haters” showed up is annoying. Sorry, let me get with the program… fucking annoying. It wasn’t as much LEO-Hating as it was a great number of people voicing their opposition to be willing and complicit when some LEO has, at best, something trivial (like a speeding stop) and starts fishing to fatten their string.

    If you’ve got something on me, congratulations. Do your job, and The System will easily win.

    If you want to roll me on some ‘civil forfeiture” bullshit because your department is underfunded, or you just want to pad your bank roll / gun collection, you just made it personal. And it’s not going to go the way you want.

    • Tank says:

      So Mike, does this mean we are not friends ? I don’t remember the point where I characterized this thread as being taken over by LEO -haters, on the contrary, I initially started by pointing out resonable arguements to the responses posted about the authors remarks. You may not like my delivery, but take away all the stupid back and forth and I think we would agree on many levels. Please read my first post near the top, I was very civil and reasoned in my approach.

      I am not here to commend all LEO’s, I don’t think anyone is above the law. Conversely, I do not think that all citizens are asshole LEO hating douche bags as you seem to be alluding to. What I do have a problem with is people who generalize entire groups, which a number of commentors were doing.

      Regardless about how you feel towards my “fucking annoying” comments they are pretty balanced and impartial. I am glad to see that you are so versed in LEO operations and excessive force suits that you can make these points from such a high pedestal. The fact that you were disappointed with Mr. McNamara’s comments shows that you care about what people say and think, so obviously you have buttons too, we all do, it is part of being human, whether you are in uniform or not. From the tone of your last three paragraphs, you seem to be like the masses in this thread, just one of the many people who thinks they understand the nature of the job, and seem to know a thing or two because they have seen some videos. I am sure that you are billy bad ass and you will take on the department in court becaused they seized your property or wronged you, sounds like more misunderstanding about law enforcement in general.

      • Mike Nomad says:

        Tank, we are friends. I hope. And yes, I think that we sync up on a whole lot of the stuff the threads up and through this topic.

        My annoyance with regard to your comments are not on this thread, rather, the one you referenced here, that took place a week or two ago. You characterized _that_ thread as being full of LEO-haters. I didn’t see that, I saw something else (reference my comments above)

        Unfortunately, I am somewhat familiar with LEOs Doing Bad. Just as I am somewhat familiar with Military Doing Bad. Like I said, we sync up on plenty of stuff: I don’t think all LEOs are bad, nor do I think everyone in the Military is bad. The problem is, there are plenty of examples of individuals in a trusted position who did wrong. I don’ t know how else to put it.

        The thing that rubs my fur the wrong way with the OP is the idea that I am supposed to do everything Person In Uniform says, period, or they get to “tune me up.” Sorry, I do not buy into that. When younger, I had a pretty strong sense of right and wrong instilled in my by my career military father.

        When I went on active duty, that was further honed by the UCMJ, and understanding what is (and isn’t) a Lawful Order. What/where that leaves me: Just because you have a uniform, badge, and/or gun, does not mean you automatically get my buy-in. I know you have an often times shitty and thankless job, and I’ll play along. If you are going in a direction I don’t think is correct, I’ll let you know.

        Aside from the Operational Convergence that LEOs and the Military are both experiencing, I think they have something else in common: Because they are uniformed… services, the actions of an individual color how other individuals wearing the uniform are perceived.

        And no, I would not consider myself of the bad-ass variety. But that doesn’t mean I will willingly eat shit.

        Again, I hope we’re good.

        • Tank says:

          Fair enough. And to clarify, I do not speak for police officers, town cops, state cops, sherrifs, etc… My experience is in Federal Law Enforcement, I have never pulled anyone over, or written a ticket. I do not argue that police officers sometimes do not get out of control, but I think all too often, ALL law enforcement gets characterized by what police are doing or have done. Not saying Federal doesn’t do stupid shit too, but the majority of animosity seems to stem from interactions with police; groups mentioned above. I know people bash on the FBI, Federal SWAT teams, etc… and yes incidents do happen, some very regrettable. But if the job were easy, and the decisions easy, everyone would want to be a LEO, or FLEO.

          Looking for a reason to abuse power, or abuse people is without a doubt grounds to be removed from your position and to suffer punitive consequences. However, I would lie if I said I don’t think some people deserve it. I can tell you from having worked in a Federal Prison, prisoners do shit that the public doesn’t ever get to see. The daily assaults on staff, assaults on other inmates, etc.. If an inmate spit in my face, kicked me, bucked on me, etc… He’s probably going to get slapped around in the shower. Is it right ? probably not, it is legal or ethical, no, does it happen hell yea. I would say its justified. A lot of criminals you cannot prosecute because they already are serving life and have every possible amenity taken away, therefore, some punishment, has to be physical. And federal prison officers are Federal Law Enforcement, so again, that category of people is grouped in with all law enforcement.

          Unfortunately nothing will be accomplished in this thread, no action will be taken, no changes will be made to policy or peoples way of thinking for or against the subject. I guess if nothing else, it is good to see what other opinions are out there, and at least glean some useful tidbit from them.

          • Mike Nomad says:

            Indeed. I have had very limited dealings with Fed LEOs. Everyone of those instances was a joy: They had to do their thing, and it all ended as it should have. They were professional down the line.

            We are certainly in agreement about the characterization(s).

            I think (well, hope) something comes from this thread. You tagged the first part of it: There are a lot of opinions to choose from. I would like to think that everyone taking the time to post is taking the time to read what else has been said. That said, there is so much coming in, I’m starting to lose track…

  29. Shooter says:

    What I love is….there is never a discussion on how you could do (place any other job here) better but when it comes to Law Enforcement EVERYONE knows just how it should be done!

    MOST that have this opinion have no fucking idea what it takes to do this job! Most of the time they have gotten a ticket or gotten “tuned up” by the police…what they forget to add is how they acted like an ass clown before said “tuning up” happened.

    What was said earlier in this thread holds true….treat them as you would like to be treated. If you disagree, that is what the courts are for! If you decide to hold court on the side of the road….then you get what you get, right wrong or indifferent. Question authority….absolutely!! Just do it in the same professional manner that you so demand of the Police!!!!!!

    Remember where most get their information from….liberal media… it’s not news unless someone is killing or being corrupt. About once a year do you ever hear of the LEO helping someone….and that’s NOT because we are all “jack booted thugs” and hate the “civilians” we serve. It’s because it’s just not shocking enough for the six o’clock news!!

    I’ll end with this…for me I love to hear the criticism (no sarcasm) it makes me a better police officer!

    • Rogue Male says:

      “It’s a US Marshalls surveillance image of the Weaver ranch ahead of the Ruby Ridge massacre. The woman in the photo is Vicki Weaver, who would later that day be shot through the head by an Asian-American FBI sniper, while standing in a cabin door and holding her and Randy’s baby.

      “If I understand the timeline of events correctly, Vicki Weaver in this photo is mourning the death of her 14-year old son Sammy, killed by the feds earlier that day.”

      I guess she didn’t remain sufficiently calm and compliant enough to make the FBI feel they were being treated the way they wanted to be treated. Her bad.

      • Bill says:

        You don’t understand the timeline correctly: the USMS had been working over a year trying to negotiate and find other means to get Weaver to peacefully surrender to a lawful court order. His wife is dead because he didn’t have the cohones to show up in court and avail himself of due process and the rule of law. Weaver was a pussy who hid on his mountaintop while letting his family and friends take all the risks for getting him supplies and cookies.

        Could things have been handled better after the murder of Deputy Degan? Sure, but it all boils down to Weaver refusing to act like a grownup American citizen far earlier.

        • Rogue Male says:

          Which of course meant the death penalty for Vicki Weaver. Definitely her bad.

          Btw, on about August 24, 1992, the fourth day of the siege on the Weaver family, FBI Deputy Assistant Director Danny Coulson wrote a memo:

          “OPR 004477
          Something to Consider
          1. Charge against Weaver is Bull Shit.
          2. No one saw Weaver do any shooting.
          3. Vicki has no charges against her.
          4. Weaver’s defense. He ran down the hill to see what dog was
          barking at. Some guys in camys shot his dog.
          Started shooting at him. Killed his son. Harris did the shooting [of Degan]. He [Weaver] is in pretty strong legal position.”

          • Nick says:

            Fuckin a holes shot his wife man. bill-I am a free man! If I refuse to acknowledge a summons or other court proceeding, and go chill in the hills, and they come for me, I should have all the legal grounds to execute every agent that shows up armed.

            • Eric says:

              No, you most certainly do NOT have that right.

              • Nick says:

                😉 *snicker* I actually found a great comment with facts on this one, and Eric- Just Checking

              • Nick says:

                So would one have the right to PEACEFULLY ignore a summons without fear of something like this happening? Looks like no, right?

              • Nick says:

                And, I know the summons comment sounds retarded, but its intentional retardation. Good job not biting. All I can see on this one is some type of breakdown in command, and quite frankly if he had been more under the radar about his anti tax activities it might not have gone so bad. The squeaky wheel does tend to get the grease. Its a shame it cost him his family, and I hope, beyond all hope that whatever changes required took place to make sure people don’t get needlessly shot.

                • Eric says:

                  Well, I wasn’t wading into the Ruby Rudge minefield! I lived in Idaho through all that and had friends with USMS. It was a shitstorm from lots of different angles. I was focusing on just the summons comment and trying to stay civil. Civil disobedience is fine, but we dont live in a consequence-free society. Despite all its problems, the law is there to serve and protect our society. As such, it will never serve everyone the way they wish, its just not possible. We try our best and correct course when we can. I am a true and faithful supporter of the Constitution and the law as it extends from that. But yes, some laws are shit…and that is our collective fault for electing people who don’t know what they are doing. And, this really pisses people off, we the people are not the official judges of what is or is not a Constitutional law. Our system has the judges for that. What we ARE, is the final word of who is in those elected positions to add or remove laws. I applaud and support civil disobedience, it often brings unfair laws into view and review. I put it right up there with voting, jury duty, and freedom of speech as our most effective means of expression and valed civic duties. Shooting cops? Will never make my list.

                  • Eric says:

                    *Valued civic duties

                  • Nick says:

                    Well said! And, never my list either. But there are lines, as discussed above,when any citizen should stand up for his rights. and those lines exist in the minds of the people you have to contact day to day. and yeah ruby ridge is a horrible, convoluted example. who brought up ruby ridge anyway. how did we get here. lol

            • Nick says:

              thomas russo
              5 months ago

              You all have it wrong, Read Volume 1 United States Code which includes Titles 1-4 and Title 5 sections 101-5949, pay attention to Titles 1-4, Title 5 is for employees of the United State for the Constitution “of the United States” which is Title 4 of Titles 1-4 and only includes Title 1 and 4 of Titles 1-4 and has a limited jurisdiction which was taken on by Title 3 until the Territory in Title 3 became a Constitutionaly bordered by Ratification of Title 2 ” the Constitution “for the United States” which means when Ohio for example had X amount of free inhabitants it could establish a Constitution which it did in 1803 with borders at that point the limited jurisdiction was removed and the only thing left was Wayne National Forest and that is questionalble. Since it lost it jurisdiction held by the United States of America and governed by the United States under TItle 4 it could no longer legislate within those established borders even the general assembly of Ohio could not, so Ohio general assembly moved by resolution (resolutions are not law) to the 1851 Constitution leaving the 1851 in full force for free inhabitants pursuant to Article IV of Title 2 of Titles 1-4 by Ratification of said Title 2. Now, I leave it to you the reading to read Volume 1 of the United States Code, All land in control of the United States can be found on the maps of the Bureau of Land management.?

        • Nick says:

          Bill-His wife is dead b/c of him? Fuck you pal, I hope someone does that same shit to you.

        • Rogue Male says:

          ‘Standard deadly force policy of the FBI was: “Agents are not to use deadly force against any person except as necessary in self-defense or the defense of another, when they have reason to believe they or another are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm. Whenever feasible, verbal warning should be given before deadly force is applied.” Under the Ruby Ridge Rules of engagement 3 and 4, the Weaver dogs, the Weaver children, and third parties were subject to the standard deadly force policy and could only be shot in self-defense if they presented a danger of death or grievous bodily harm. However, under the Ruby Ridge ROE 1 and 2, deadly force against the Weaver adults should be used without the justification of defense and without any verbal warning.

          ‘The Denver FBI SWAT team assigned to Ruby Ridge thought the ROE were “crazy” and agreed among themselves to follow the FBI deadly force policy. However, most of the FBI HRT sniper/observers accepted the ROE as modifying the deadly force policy. Examples: HRT sniper Dale Monroe saw the ROE as a “green light” to shoot armed adult males on sight and HRT sniper Edward Wenger believed that if he observed armed adults, he could use deadly force, but he was to follow standard deadly force policy for all other individuals. Fred Lanceley, the FBI Hostage Negotiator at Ruby Ridge, was “surprised and shocked” at the ROE, the most severe rules he had ever heard in his over 300 hostage situations and characterized the ROE as inconsistent with standard policy. A later Senate report criticized the ROE as “virtual shoot-on-sight orders.'”

  30. jjj0309 says:

    I feel overwhelming totalitarianism; It just 21st century’s Rise of the Fourth Reich.
    Back then, the forefathers fought against the system and authority for freedom, and they were Patriots.
    Now, you promoting unneeded violence in the the name of authority and ridicule about the term of freedom disregard it, and now you’re the Patriot.

    “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
    -Benjamin Franklin

  31. balais says:

    This is a symptom of increased authoritarianism and there are always those that make excuses for such behavior.

    What does pat think about police beating homeless or mentally disabled people to death? or police officers in new orleans after katrina killing a mentally disabled man and throwing his burning body off the bridge???

    Or police officers mistakenly killing a veteran for being surprised by their no knock raids going after marijuana?

    Heads need to fucking roll, period.

    The American people should be grabbing carbines and sharpening pitchforks to not murder anybody, but to send a message that if the public is going to be continuously abused, blood will be shed. I mean, jesus christ, what do you think the 2nd amendment was intended for? hunting? only allowing white property owners to shoot targets?


    (and im not advocating violence against anybody, so dont pull that bullshit. Deterrence is a good check and balance to potential abuses, and as the bundy ranch situation demonstrated, OWS needs to be armed to the teeth next time)

    • Tank says:

      “…police officers in new orleans after katrina killing a mentally disabled man and throwing his burning body off the bridge??? ”

      What the fuck is that about ? I never heard that one, I would be interested to read that article. See, shit like that, yes heads should roll, agreed. Getting tased and waking up a little sore and angry, not so much. I guess we have a different opinion of what constitutes excessive. This article sure has gone off in a lot of directions, SSD probably has their finger hovering over the delete button for this entire thread.

      • balais says:

        i made a mistake.

        two seperate incidents.

        1.) Henry Glover was killed at a strip mall, then his body burned. The two officers involved were conviced, one of 27 years, another 17. Civilians, nevertheless, would have gotten the gas chamber.

        2.) The Danzinger bridge killings.

        Not a stateemnt against cops. A statement that during SHTF, shit does indeed hit the fan.

  32. Bill says:

    If you think cops get away with murder, some might, but with the scrutiny we are under, I’m confident it happens less than in the “good old days” which never really existed, before SCOTUS passed down all the decisions that reigned cops in, and we could search, seize and use force with impunity. Like the 1950s.

    And if you think Officer Friendly is gone, look at the curriculum at your regional or local basic academy. The number of hours spent on social work typically exceeds topics such as firearms and control tactics.

    I could write a book on this, but anyone who is likely to have their opinion changed on such a complex subject on a Internet forum is a moron.

    • Nick says:

      Bill- I don’t know man, that depends how well your debate is, the context is what changes opinions, not the venue., and like I said up there, I think the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and its a shame when a command breakdown, or other unseen event results in tragedy, and a lot of times things fail to go as planed. I guess if anyone is really worried about that, being a squeaky wheel wouldn’t suite them.

  33. Jason says:

    What the hell, why not throw my opinion in too :).

    I’m in EMS and have worked with Fire and Police. I’ve got a like/dislike relationship with cops. It all depends on the individual.

    Some cops I saw regularly were stand up guys. You felt safe as an EMT having them there knowing they were watching your back and were there to serve and protect.

    Others….not so much. One bragged to me about how even though my pistol permit took months to process, his recreational one would be done in a week max because he’s a cop. And that he was mad his wife didn’t get let off from a traffic ticket cause she’s married to a cop. Nepotism bs like that. And stories of the cops beating prisoners at the jail he worked at.

    Some of youtube has people doing stupid stuff and asking for trouble. Other times….how do you defend certain cops who shoot family pets who are just barking and inside a fence? There’s no reason for it.

    It’s just a matter of bad apples. And with power, you get a fair amount of bad apples who like to abuse that power. There’s a lot of cops who do good with that power and I love em for that. But that doesn’t erase the existence of the bad ones.

  34. Luke says:

    I’d hazard that 90% of LEOs do a fantastic job 90% of the time. But pretty much everyone at least knows someone that has had a LEO treat them in a grossly unlawful way, and that kind of overwhelms the memories of all the courteous professional police interaction they’ve had over the years.

    • Red says:

      Exactly. People react to what they see. When all they see (or at least the majority) in the news relating to LEs is negative, ex. the killing of the homeless guy in Albuquerque not too long ago, that’s what they react to.
      And as SSD said earlier, the public is a perfectly acceptable way to judge attitudes toward LEs, they don’t live in a seperate world.

  35. Moe says:

    Though Pat is defending his peers, face it LEO’s screw up just as much as the next guy but they are in a position of authority and thus must be looked at closely. They are authorized to deny you your freedom and life. Problem is they also back each other up when they know a peer is out of line or broke the law. It “appears” to be more prevalent these days, though it is most likely just being reported more often. At the end of the day, Pat you are over the top and out of line. I get ordered to do something by a LEO I will comply within the limits of the law after that he or she fucks up they are fair game like the rest of us, period.

  36. Average Citizen says:

    I’m ok with Pat’s comments. He’s addressing the beatdown of a POS, not a regular citizen or some old lady. And I’m ok with Cops wearing tactical gear when they deal with threats like the Boston bombers or the North Hollywood Shootout. If you were in the cops shoe would you be ok with a little handgun and no kevlar or heavy body armour? I know I wouldn’t be. I for one would not want the USA to end up like the UK where terrorist are free to chop off the head of a soldier while the police are essentially to scared to do anything…

    Calling cops “pigs” is just as bad as someone who hasn’t served in the military calling soldiers “baby-killers”. Generalizing a whole profession whether soldier or LEO’s for the idiotic acts of a few is pretty unfair. I support both our men in uniform and LEO’s. When did it become so popular that you had to choose one over the other.

    • seans says:

      So you advocate excessive force if the guy is a POS. That is a down hill slope. One, excessive force which is against the law. And is what type of crimes gets your ass beat. And what happens when the guy is innocent. As for the Boston bombing, those guys are rolling around with more body armor than I had while doing village clearances. They are rolling more with more guys and armor than I had on most of my ops.

  37. Eric says:

    LEOs are the most visible representation of all forms of government and we all know the prevailing attitude toward government these days. The President has very low approval ratings, the Congress has approval ratings so low that the positive number almost disappears within the polls margin of error. The media loves to lead with horror stories, and LEOs acting badly certainly fits that bill. Do people really hate LEOs? Yeah, some, but most people are just so goddamned tired of government that LEOs get the brunt of that and every bad cop, mistake, misstep, or human error by cops gets a full throttle “bah, fuck ’em!” We ARE cleaning house, and we will continue to do so. I never support a dirty cop and no one should, but the immediate and extreme condemnation of every incident without context or knowledge of the situation helps no one. Even the President jumped on this bandwagon when he made a public condemnation of the white officer confronting the black professor in Cambridge without really having any information except one side. Thus the walk-back and the “beer summit”. No one does the job perfectly and some really fuck up, but how do you think cops feel when they hear EVERYDAY that they are thugs and fuck-ups…even when doing a great job. Opinion can get out of control and lose all current basis in fact. If only we could temper opinion with reason, cops included.

    One more thing, politicians routinely resign complex issues (drug addiction, mental illness, homelessness, immigration, gun crime, etc.) to law enforcement by pushing through poor laws and then lots of talk to do more with no further help. You know what? LE fails every time with this. We are not the tool for societal change, but it gets dumped on us and it is all our fault when it fails. But the open secret is these are VERY complex problems that require numerous simultaneous approaches. But politicians just push the problem down the road and blame the very people who are not equipped to fix them. I can stop drugs at the border (but they wont let me), but I cant help an addict quit. I can stop people at the border (but they wont let me), but I cant stop people from hiring illegal immigrants. I can roust guys out of the park and cite them for shitting on benches (but they wont let me), but I cant help him find a job. I can arrest the guy going nuts in the library, waving his bare ass around the kids section (they WILL let me do that), but I cant help him with medicine. I can arrest the violent offender, but I cant keep him in jail. As under-staffed and over-worked as LE is, the other groups and agencies that should be helping are in even worse shape. But again, we, as the most visible, catch all the blame and hell for failed policies and programs that were never fully supported in the first place, fueling public opinion on top of our own personal screw ups and incompetence.

    This is not a rant to support bad policing, just a rant about being loaded with impossible tasks that are really much more then a law enforcement matter. And Pat is right, sometimes that shit licker needs an ass kicking, we all know those people…the hard part is whether or not you have correctly selected the correct shit-licker for said ass kicking.

    What a lively thread this has been!

    • Rogue Male says:

      All fair points. But if I could underscore one key element of the discussion, what is concerning is how some/some LEOs feel entitled to obeisance from mere civilians, and the affront they feel when said civilians do not immediately defer to their LEO overlords. The job is tough, no doubt. But LEOs are not above the law, nor above the rest of us. Yet it seems like pulling teeth to get some (most?) LEOs even to acknowledge those basic facts. We need police. We don’t need a police state. Police authority ultimately emanates from the consent of the policed. It’s not a license to hurt people you think deserve to be hurt.

      Lastly, I thought high speed, low drag kinda guys like McNamara were supposed to be endowed with mucho maturity, leadership, self-discipline and critical-thinking skills. His post displayed none of those traits. As a leader, he should know how easy it is for wannabes and juniors to emulate the “beat them within an inch of their life” bullshit. He really needed to do better.

  38. Kevinmo says:

    Pat dropped the ball on this one, sad.

    • SSD says:

      No, Mac is entitled to his opinion. He has a much different point of view than the average guy on the street. Mac works closely with a lot of quality people in Military, LE and industry. He sees the best in them, The average guy on the other hand, only sees a cop when he gets a ticket or learns on the internet about some tool bag throwing a flash bang into the crib of an innocent child during a no knock warrant.

  39. Kirk says:

    I respect Pat’s credentials as a tactical instructor but I have to disagree with him on this. We American’s are not subjects, we are free citizens of our great republic. We are not required to immediately bow down to police or risk being beaten or killed. I am not talking about posing a threat to police, that is very different and no one should blame police for reacting to a threat as long as they discontinue use of force once the threat no longer exists. The problem many people have with police is when they beat or kill a person for no reason other then contempt of cop. Contempt of cop my be rude if the cop has not done anything to deserve it but in our great republic we get to be rude if we want to be, as long as we don’t threaten violence while doing so. That is one of the many things that make our country great and worth fighting for. In Pat’s defense he does work with police on a regular basis and just as people who do not spend time with police may find it easy to believe police can do no right, someone who does spend a lot of time with police may find it easy to believe they can do not wrong (or at least no more than 5% wrong).

  40. Dave says:

    I think people might be arguing over the wrong things. I’m glad it has remained mostly civil. The fact of the matter is that public perception, justified or not, is the way it is. It’s a problem. I’m sure some of you guys are problem solvers.

    So what are LEO going to do about it?

    The current tactics seems to bet just saying “you don’t understand, I know your perception is negative, but I have to keep doing the things that are giving you the negative perception”. Not many people accept that kind of response from anyone or anything.

    Part of the solution looks to be in the realm of hiring practices.

    • SSD says:

      I think it’s more than just hiring. It’s training, equipping, policies & procedures and, most of all, accountability. Just like the law is meant to hold citizens accountable, the law must be used to hold those that misuse power or bring harm to the citizenry or their property through ineptitude, accountable. The same as you or me. This is not being done enough. There is no reason in this day and age that every police car is not GPSed and tracked and every officer recorded. There’s also no reason for them to use non-issued cellular devices. They shouldn’t have anything to hide. Some agencies are way ahead of others in this regard. I blame the police unions for much of the problems with accountability. Public servants have no business in unions and should be at will employees.

      • Dave says:

        I agree with your entire post. The Union thing carries over to VA nurses, too, but that’s another discussion entirely. I brought up hiring practices because in any organization, large or small, it’s the people within it who keep the inertia of that system going, be it in a good or bad direction.

        I think a good, if a little extreme, example would be the hiring of dishonorably discharged. It has been intimated to me on a handful of occasions that some law enforcement organizations, especially at the municipal level, hire the dishonorably discharged from time to time.

        Whether or not these people are fit for law enforcement in an outright sense isn’t the issue in my opinion, individuals vary and some situations are ambiguous or just unfairly circumstantial. The issue for me is going to be their base proclivities. On that level, I think they are unfit. Regardless of the reasons for the discharge, they’re going to be insecure about it. Who wouldn’t? It’s the kind of baggage that keeps some law enforcement organization’s systems plodding along the track of unaccountability, separatism, and distrust.

        A negative feedback loop springs up where the general population’s perception of law enforcement decreases to a point where less upstanding and good individuals want to be in law enforcement, which over time decreases the general population’s perception further and so on.

      • SSD says:

        This is a prime example of what I’m talking about. Las Vegas Metro takes action to remove a bad seed and the union protests the move. If they’d had their way, he’d still be on SWAT as a sniper. Well done LVPD.

      • echo says:

        SSD, I would disagree on we have no business in unions. Who would stop or bring to light the abuses of public officials or abuses from leadership within an agency? I agree that unions across the spectrum of employment have caused issues but they have also done some good. Your point about the recording is well taken, with a few exceptions. I do have the right to make private calls, my agency issued phone is as you state open to public review at any time with a freedom of information act request. My personal cell (which I don’t have) isn’t and shouldn’t be without a warrant or other probable cause. You would put me in the same vain as others have in this thread that I am without certain rights :).

        On the video recording aspect we are always on the camera at my agency, the car cam records during our entire shift. But as an employee I feel it is over reaching as at times (and I know it shouldn’t) private life does creep into the work day via phone or whatever. I am careful not to talk about personal issues but big brother is always watching. I cannot even have a conversation with a fellow officer without concern of being recorded.

        I don’t have anything to hide but being able to say the Lt is a dick would be nice without worrying about someone reviewing my tape and hearing my personal thoughts that I might share with a co-worker. Think about your military time and let me know how that would work out, and I’m not talking about combat recording. I’m just talking about day to day on post, during training, at chow, at the px you get the point.

        • SSD says:

          I’d say that just like members of the military, you surrender certain rights while on duty. There’s little that can’t wait until you are off duty. If it’s that important, it can be taken care of on an official phone. A personal cell phone is a distraction from your duties. It’s also a means to conduct business off the record. There should never be an off the record for a police officer. For their own safety and surety as well as those that they serve.

          I’m just asking that members of the law enforcement profession walk the talk. If they have nothing to hide it shouldn’t be a problem showing everyone, right? Isn’t that what an officer says when he asks to see what’s in your trunk?

          Having said that, I also think that, across the board, cops should be better compensated. This is because what they do is tough, and dangerous, but also so that they don’t spend much of their duty time trying to hustle up side jobs.

    • echo says:

      Dave, I think there are agencies who are chanigng things. Ours for example has had a lot of interaction and training with guys from Pats unit. They ALL have taught us to slow down, use surround and callouts (which is already big in our area anyway), pickoffs and other measures to not go into someone’s home when you can avoid it. This isn’t from a civil liberties context but from an officer safety context. I too think some agencies have gone over board, refering to themselves as operators and all of that and adopting a bastaserized version of what they think HSLD units do. They suffer from what many agencies do in that they cannot afford the type of training that will cause change. Change in policing is slow and is directly related to leadership and budgets.

      • Dave says:

        I agree with that. I don’t have my hand right on the very pulse of law enforcement, but I am a little more exposed than most. I’ve seen a big effort on the part of some organizations to change the way they interact. The training is the best it has ever been. I don’t think enough people outside of law enforcement are either aware of it, or if they are, appreciate it, not actively anyway.

        The longer I live, the more I have realized that people are people. That is to say while the training can be very very good, the individual being trained may be mediocre to crap. It’s why I bring up hiring practices. It’s the basic who they are that I’m interested in, not the what they have been trained to do. It seems the majority of negative press that affects public opinion of law enforcement is because of the actions of police who, while properly trained, are basically kind of nasty individuals.

        • Dave says:

          I’d like to add something that I think is a rather germane example, especially considering this site. While I’ve never been in the special operations community, nor have I ever aspired to be. I’ve been a civilian my whole life. I do know two such people because of the industry I’m in. The impression that I got was that most people with decent will power can achieve the fitness level required to pass selection. Physicality aside, the disposition of the candidate, their temperament, is apparently everything.

          I’m suggesting that law enforcement agencies should screen their men and women to that level, that’s unreasonably impractical. I do, however, think much more emphasis should e on sussing out who a candidate really is rather than what they are or claim to be. I think fundamentally this is one of the core drivers of the issue we’re discussing.

        • echo says:

          Dave, I think the problem is on multiple fronts. Citizens are not exposed to all of us, just the ones on TV either getting a medal or getting arrested. I always suggest people attending a citizens academy and or doing a ride along to get a view of their police department. There are so many misconceptions out there about policing and how “easy” it is etc. To your training point you are correct. I see it on both sides, some agencies hire questionable individuals, and then they are trained by questionable FTO’s or agencies, this leads of course to problems. The pussification of LEO’s and bowing to the least common demoninator is a serious issue. Being a cop isn’t for everyone, no worries, the bar as you say should be high and difficult to attain. Not just on the physical side but more importantly on the mental side. We push for decision makers first and shooters second.

  41. Riceball says:

    I think that part of the problem with the current perception of LEOs these days is with the advent and proliferation of smart phones and their video capabilities along with the 24 hour news cycle. Ever since CNN first came on air the news media cycle has gone from just the morning paper and the evening news it’s now a 24 hour cycle and the media is always eager to jump on anything to fill air time and smart phones have now made that even easier. So as a result you’re seeing more incidents involving the police but just because you’re seeing more doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re happening more, you’re just more aware of them because of cell phone videos, 24 hour news, the internet, and social media.

    On a related note, I think that, in a lot of cases, people are placing too much faith in amateur video footage and will believe everything they are told that they’re are seeing in the video. This completely ignores the fact that you often don’t see the beginning of these videos, if it was even caught on video at all, and simply see the action which makes it look like a cop is beating an “innocent victim” when in fact the suspect was resisting arrest and physically assaulting the arresting officer(s) and may have had a weapon.

  42. Craig says:

    Cops are NOT better than those they have chosen to protect as a career,and who have been voted in office/hired by, “we, the people”.

    Secondly cops ARE not judge, jury & executioner.
    They exist solely to enforce laws and to apprehend to bring to trial. If they get so discouraged by the legal system releasing all those they apprehend, then they should not be cops, but law-MAKERS.

    Civilian law enforcement should not be outfitted with military clothing, body armor,and vehicles,any more than they should be training for “double tap” head shots.
    Revolvers & billy clubs. See how many would want to be cops then. Plus it would have the additional benefit of having cops (re) learn people skills instead of shoot first-“Oh…wrong house. Sorry for killing your child and family dog.Oh, don’t worry about us, we take care of our own. A board of inquiry will be held, I/we will be found clear of blame,and return to our jobs after a nice, PAID, vacation to the FL keys, fishing”.

    • Shooter says:

      Hey Craig, why don’t you head out to any big city and try out the ol’ revolver and billy club with no body armor idea for us…see how that works out for ya…please! There will be one less liberal retard

  43. CJ says:

    unfortunately, from what i have seen, it is next to impossible to make any critical comments of law enforcement, no matter how legitimate the criticism or how civilly it is presented.

    Anything that even smells like criticism results in the ” oh, you hate cops, call a crackhead next time you need help, commie loser” line of comments…

    No one should be above question, especially those in uniform. When we can’t have civil discourse to address a topic, such as policing policies and the appropriate role of police in the US, then we are in trouble/

    If one of my Soldiers or peers was getting out of line and doing something immoral or dangerous, i’d take care of it and would appreciate the notice if something else pointed it out.

    Seeing the things police have been cleared of (or not even investigated for) in recent years is disheartening to say the least.

    and to the “good cops” out there, please be more receptive in the criticism of the bad ones. letting their actions slide makes you bad too.

    • SSD says:

      Agreed. You’ve made some valid points.

    • Shooter says:

      CJ…I agree you should question authority…..but when your criticized day in and day out it gets old….and you get tired of being lumped in with douche bags….

      It’s to the point that if I meet new people at dinner parties or other social events that I may not see again I tell them I work for UPS. Just so I don’t have to talk about how I can be a better cop from someone who has no idea what I do.

      Even you (and I’m not mad at you) say in your above post…. critical of “law enforcement” not critical of “bad law enforcement”

      when everyone tells you how to do this job and have suggestions like “let’s take away there body armor” and” not teach them how to use the weapon we are issued to protect you and ourselves” you tend to get a little jaded.

      Just my two cents

      • CJ says:

        i understand the frustration, i do, having politically driven rules of engagement overseas that put myself and my soldiers at increased risk was extremely hard to cope with, especially when we lost guys directly because we complied with them.

        I should have added “and bad law enforcement individuals” on there, because while there are certainly bad officers that require attention there are also systematic/cultural/organizational issues that sometimes need addressing as well.

        I want to see you guys well trained to protect yourselves, i do.

        I dont want to see SWAT raids for non violent offenses ( Pot, regulatory violations, etc), or beating people for recording them while working, or police shooting family pets ( im not talking about aggressive strays, feral dogs, etc, there have been way too many questionable/outright BS shoots. instead of another BEARCAT per town of 5k citizens maybe we can divert some of that money to training on K9 interaction and behavior) , stuff like that.

        And while i’ve never worked full time LE, i study the law, i study policy and try to understand why we have the problems that we do today. I try to resist the “rabble rabble” that some people get caught up in but we do have problems that need addressing.

        Look at the behavior of the Massachusetts’ police chiefs recently, especially the chief of Boston PD, openly saying he should be able to decide who needs what type of firearm and being angry that the legislature my snatch that power away before he got to expand it.

        that is a department gone too far, time to have a serious discussion about the role of police in that community….. who am i kidding, its Mass. that’ll never happen. haha

        and hey we’ve so far managed to prove my initial statement false.

  44. JRT6 says:

    “If police have to come and get you…”
    “…they’re bringing an ass-kicking with them.” — Chris Rock