Front Sight, Front Sight, by God, Front Sight…
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Must be a Sig if you have to have a 6’oclock hold like that.
Slow clap.
P229 DAK, right?
Ironically, that’s the EXACT hold I have to use with Trijicon HDs on my G43. It’s driving me nuts.
I like the sights but can’t get used to holding them 3.5-4″ low at 25Y. I ordered some for the G19 to see if they’re better on it. If not, I’ll go back to the Wilson Combat battlesights.
You can buy a taller version of the HD front sight that should take care of the issue. I had the same problem when I got HD’s for my G19, but once I got the taller front sight (from Optics Planet) and installed it, the gun shot POA/POI again.
It would be important to mention that one should see all these, the last one before firing. See the target, confirm alignment, confirm point of aim. Yes all three of these things can be done quickly.
thanks for the reminder!
I was taught point shooting. I was told in the heat of the moment you may or may not seek your front sight but what you WILL see or seek is the object in front of you.
I was taught that in that moment I am not seeking to shoot a bullseye nor shoot off the tips of matches but rather a chest sized area that could be straight in front of me or turned to the side reducing target size, to the side of me, above or below me. So if one can put 2 to 5 hits in a chest sized area under stress does it matter if he or she seeks the front sight?
We always hear, “Shootings happen in between 3 and 7 yards” We are told they only last seconds and usually under 5 shots fired. In that real world happening are we honestly taking the time to find our front sight or are we just hyper-focused on drawing our weapon and stopping the life endangering threat against us or another?
A persons outlook may change when placed under physical stress, hands soaked in a bucket of ice water till numb then asked to sprint to target within 3 yards, draw and fire 2 rounds.
Now I believe that one can and will seek their front sight when their weapon is drawn and asked or given time to do so. This can even be done quickly but will it or can it always be done when under stress?
I agree with some elements of what you said. Especially with the degradation of accuracy under stress and sensory overload and focus on what your threat is doing. However, I think with proper training (quality and quantity) we still can see our sights and target with no degradation in time. Here are 3 pts
From training experience, when you take a shooter with basic flat range training and throw then into live fire scenario training, alot of guys naturally pick up point shooting. Especially if some combative aspect is added in. You will often see groups drop low in targets even as close a 4-5m as guys start looking over there sights at the target. They still got hits, but were they the best hits they could have gotten. Sim play also demonstrates what happens when guys look over their sights and miss, or sometimes try to look at everything at once and shoot hands.
One of the things we bring up to guys is accuracy. We push guys out to 100m on BC zone steel and run 25 and 50m bulls, so that when their accuracy degrades they can make shots closer up. One example we use is of a green on blue situation. An Indig guard opens up on a group of people. Luckily this highly trained individual (5 digit round count experience) is about 20m behind the threat. He draws fires a mag of pistol, but fails to put the individual down. There was unfavorable lighting conditions and other stress factors, but pistol marksmanship fundamentals applied well could have changed the ending of this story.
Lastly, during my only pistol engagement I shot two people at about 2 and 5 meters. I fired 12 rds and even though I lost clarity of focus on my targets (environmental) I saw my sights. I had enough time to get my shots off because, I had the element of surprise and had already had a mental shortcut and had decided to smoke them before they could assess me as a threat. In the end the shooting just looked like what I see during training.
Is there a place for point shooting? Maybe, but the public doesn’t really seem to think cops should be doing it. Not really an option if you are SWAT or have a CT/HR mission either. I have tried it in the range, but it wasn’t worth maybe the 2 hundredths of a seconds it would take me to get a good enough sight picture at 7m. I would rather guys train hard. Compete in USPSA/IDPA/Bullseye ect, to further their shooting ability. And buy back that extra time with Scenario Training / Mental Mapping (OODA) events. (At 3-7 meters you fate is probably more sealed by getting ahead in the OODA Loop than shooting skill, but if you are ahead put them down with speed and relative accuracy. And if it is a low percentage shot at 20m, or a shot 50 or a hundred put then down with relative speed and pin point accuracy)
Hey thanks for the input. I treasure real world experience and will take your points into consideration in my practice sessions.
With enough practice shooting fast and learning to take in all the visual stimuli, its entirely possible to make aimed shooting as fast and more effective than point shooting.
I’ve been shooting IDPA for about three years now. I’m no master, have zero “real world experience” or training so we’re clear. I can snap three rounds off inside of 7 yards that will occasionally touch each other. As far as about 15 yards they’ll be about a fist in size. Accuracy wise it usually depends on where my first shot was truly aimed. I haven’t quite achieved a level of performance that I can see my front sight lift and settle in order to be able to tell that I broke the first shot low/high or right/left but, when I send out one or two follow ups at the same point of aim they stay where I’m aiming them. I see my front sight for each pull of the trigger, resting between my rear sight just long enough to know that I’m following through properly.
Empirically speaking this is occurs in split times of about .20 to .25 seconds.
All it’s really taken for me to shoot at this level ( which still isn’t as fast as it could be ) is trigger time. I shoot maybe 100 rounds a month. Nothing major though all of it as at matches. All of my trigger time is spent on the clock, shooting courses of fire that vary distance, target array, threat priority and occasionally toss in no shoot/non threat targets. Just shooting in that manner, with that level of frequency gave my hands, eyes and mind time to learn to work the trigger at the speed my eyes can see and confirm the sights, then do it faster and faster.
Bad example, all pics will result with same effect on target. Perhaps a good primer for new/basic shooters.
Sight alignment matters more than sight picture. The quickest sight alignment with whatever sight picture one needs, to get the level of precision required, at distance shooting.
Capable shooters vary sight picture within the time/precision constraints required.
I’ve always held at COM, but recently have been told that some manufs make their sights for a 6 o’oclock hold like demo’d in the pictures-
Any one have anything to back up this?
What about shootin’ gangsta style with the pistol tilted sideways?
Honestly, I used to do front-sight focus, but in last two years I transitioned to a target-focus and I like it. Perhaps I’m point-shooting or some equivalent, but I feel I should be looking at my target, or in my case, targets (plural). With a front-sight focus I feel there is a lot of tunnel vision and you have the chance to miss what is going on around you, as well as the results of your hits/misses.
When I do target focus, I still align my sights, I just find I have gone to a wider rear notch to make it happen. My accuracy seems the same, but my speed is faster.
Same here. With much practice I have learn to trust my eye hand coordination to the point that with only eyes on target I can hit exactly what I’m aiming at. I can make a much quicker initial shot and with proper body mechanics and muscle memory my side arm is exactly where it needs to be to line up follow up shots.
Just get a red dot…
The red dot makes sighting a lot easier but, for beginners without a solid foundation in grip and follow through it can actually slow them down hunting for the dot. If you can’t index the pistol straight and clean from the holster, achieving proper sight alignment with the irons consistently, searching around the window for the dot is a detriment to speed out of the holster.
If your grip and follow through on each shot doesn’t end in perfect sight alignment each time, the same problem can be had. You aim, squeeze and suddenly the dot disappeared because the slide isn’t coming to rest in the same position that it raised itself from.
That’s actually a course of fire for the agency and that is the hold they teach on it. They start with this to emphasize the basics and go from there. Not all the trainees come from a MIL or LE background so you are starting the training as if no one has any experience in firearms.