I realize that the average American buys his jockey shorts in packs of six for five bucks from some big box store. But, he also knows nothing about the industry that made them for him. Those underpants are a commodity item, made as cheaply as possible for the convenience of the American consumer. That does not translate well to products made for the military, and by extension, the tactical market.
The things we write about in SSD aren’t commodity items for mass consumption. Whether they are made in the US or overseas, we generally write about specialized products. Those are going to cost more due to a variety of factors. These include materials, construction (which includes the labor) and overhead (the cost of doing business)
I certainly can’t afford many of the things we place on SSD and I certainly don’t expect you too either. But crying about the price of an item is not a barometer of its value. With value comes satisfaction.
Regardless of whether an item is purchased or issued, please consider the old adage, “Buy once, cry once.” If it’s something you really need, you’ll figure out how to get it. Always remember, quality costs but quality works, and quality lasts.
Is the peanut gallery bitching again?
Always…
Valid point about quality. Outdoor clothing is a classic example. Gore tex, polertec alfa cost big money but when the temperature is below freezing you’ll be glad you bought high end clothing
I’m desperately trying to justify buying a $500 pair of pants. Then I found a receipt I had for an $800 dollar suit I bought and $500 didn’t seem so bad. Then I read the receipt and saw that the tailor had discounted the suit 600 bucks, so I have no idea of what it’s really worth.
How many times will you wear that suit? And how many times would you wear those pants? Would the suit save your life? Or contribute to making it more comfortable? And the pants?
The beauty of asking yourself those types of questions is that the answers are driven by personal and situational factors. For each person the answer will be different.
I realize I am speaking to the choir. Was it Jim Hodge that said “If you get it, you get it.” ? Rings true here on so many levels.
The first time you use that $500 pants it cost you $500, but the 2nd its only $250 to eventually those pants are going to be free and then make you money. That the logic I use with my wife on big spends and it works in my head. Then you can factor in the resale or trade value somewhere along the lifespan when you upgrade. Win win.
Buying a pair of jeans made in indonesia that say ‘XY Designer’ for $300 is totally fine for most it seems, but goodness forbid anyone buys some Crye trousers or a Beyond softshell. That’s the most common attitude I seem to encounter anyway.
i think it really boils down to most guys to be versatility. A pair of designer jeans can be worn every day till sunday for years. I could probably use that both informally as business casual (just throw on a nice button up and sports jacket) as well as laid back. But for me, an average joe from the burbs, getting a ‘combat pant’ that we know probs doesn’t jam with our usual attire it can seem a bit expensive.
With respect, agree and disagree.
Of course small lot sizes, made in America, heavy duty materials, etc all cost more. And yes, if your core customer believes a product is valuable, who cares about the rest.
But
I would imagine that most of the items posted on SSD are being publicized because the seller is looking to reach a broader audience. Therefore the seller should care about the thoughts of the commenters. If one troll bashes, who cares, but if many folks are saying something, that’s valuable marketing insight.
There’s also a limit to the legit premium attached to the above quality items. If all else is equal, charging 2x for made in America? Yeah, probably makes sense. Charging 10x? You’re probably doing something wrong or just price gauging
The industry does listen to the customers complaining about price, and that’s why everything is still made overseas.
No body running these smaller MIUSA places is getting rich, they can’t just slash prices to make customers happy, they either have to make a lower quality product, move overseas or both. When the cost of labor alone is 5-10x the price here in the states, how exactly are they going to compete on price?
I think the biggest problem is a poor grasp of inflation, grab a Sears catalog from the early 1900s, look at averages wages vs. the price of goods and then tell me everything is too expensive. People just didn’t expect to be able to fill up a 2600 sq. ft. house with possessions on an average income.
I would have to disagree with the aspect of “most” products being covered on SSD by virtue of the seller/manufacturer looking to reach a broader audience. On the contrary, I think a handful of products make their way onto SSD with this intention, but many of the products don’t necessarily need a broader audience or exposure. Talking with these sellers/manufacturers you’ll find that release notices and coverage from SSD is desired on the basis of it being largely unbiased and factual. As to the second part of the comment regarding the opinion aspect, that is more than anything related to the intended audience. Just being a consumer doesn’t qualify all of us as the targeted end-user.
This.
In many cases, it seems like the price premium is mostly tied tied to the brand name, rather than the materials or location of manufacture.
Arc’Teryx is a prime example of this: Even many of their imported garments are significantly more expensive than comparable garments from other manufacturers.
“Made in Canada” is hardly “Made in India”
Not everything that wears the dead bird logo comes from Canada. That said, they have an incredibly high tech manufacturing process setup overseas.
Common belief is that brands have their own factories, which they don’t. Arc’teryx use 22 manufacturers worldwide, and probably every single one of those is used by other brands (with the exception of their Vancouver factory, which they own). So their incredibly high tech manufacturing process setup overseas (really?) is used by other brands too, but somehow they don’t get the same quality in the products?
I’ve said this before, but what you pay for with Arc’teryx is their QC process. That’s the main thing that other brands don’t do to the psychopath level that Arc’teryx maintains.
Arc’Teryx is the perfect example of cost being added from diminishing returns. Sure, they might only be 20% better then something that costs 50% less, but the price actually reflects the added cost to wring out that last little bit of perfection. If you don’t need that last 20% (or wouldn’t know it if it bit you) don’t buy it, but don’t assume there is some luxury mark up just because it costs more. Arc’teryx pours more money into product design and proprietary tech then anyone I know. I won’t pay their asking price but I don’t at all think it reflects anything other then their massive production costs.
And if you are a seam geek, its like wearing a Michelangelo, Frickin’ work of ART.
My Arc’Teryx soft shell is only starting to show wear after 5 years of being my go to layer. It fits best, the cut the make is functional, so I think you are right
In many cases, you as a civ/consumer are not the intended audience for a particular product launch. In addition to casual buyers, SSD caters towards special operations and government purchasing teams. They tend to procure items well out of our budgets but they sure are interesting to learn about.
Well said
Allon, a plastic bobble head literally would cost 10 times more to make in the US vs China. Just ask Mike Rowe. Yes, it can be that much more. If you think something costs too much, then don’t buy it and go with something else. Supply and Demand will iron things out either way.
If you have to complain about price, you don’t really need it. Usually the only problem is that expensive items are no better than what you already own and still command a higher price. There is a simple solution for that, keep the item you own now. You don’t need to upgrade if it’s not worth it. I certainly don’t. Maybe you won’t look as cool, but if you’re buying for cool, now you know why the price hurts. If the price is too high, don’t buy. Businesses that really are trying to gouge you and not actually selling quality product will fail.
People wonder how I can spend more then $300 on a backpack, its pretty easy when you aren’t throwing $60,000 at a car.
Priorities.
This. Like the guys that booze it up every weekend at bars and clubs then bitch that you have decent gear. Life’s a breeze when you’re not paying $8 for a domestic.
I agree in the cry once buy once philosophy and that quality workmanship, design, and warranties all cost more. However, it just seems that any of these vendors use the word’s “tactical”, “made in the USA”, “mil-spec”, etc… as a liscense to gouge. Then they cry about how they had it is to make money, how they can’t meet customer demand, blah, blah, blah. Make a bit less and focus on pricing right and items will appeal to a broader audience. Guess what happens then. You sell more, reach More customers who will come back for the next item. But no. That’s not exclusive enough, not cool enough. So what we get are $500 pants and constant back orders because well that so tactical.
You ever think that maybe they don’t want to sell $50 pants?
People need to realize that equipment/gear that you may have to trust your life with shouldn’t be cheap, it better be the best . I learned in war that “good enough” isn’t a great way to think.
I will be spending a few paychecks on this “too expensive” gear in the next few months. I will be doing it because I want the best available gear when I am in harms way. This has become the new norm:
http://www.stripes.com/news/lacking-basic-gear-special-operators-stuck-buying-their-own-equipment-1.396109
This is despite the Bush and Obama administrations pouring money into SOCOM budgets. Yes, I blame airsofters and others who want but don’t need top of the line gear for the increased demand and inflated prices. But that increased demand has also lead to the innovation that has produced gear that makes us safer and more comfortable. The gear worn in Grenada wasn’t that different from what was worn in OIF. Now you are in violation of rule # 1 if you are using what you were issued a few deployments ago. We live in a free market, and money talks. If you can’t afford it don’t get it; but I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
If anything, hobbyists (range queers, airsofters, etc) allow economy of scale especially for small producers by enlarging their market.
You can’t certainly blame that on them – most still buy cheap copies from China.
I have no problem with people charging whatever they want for whatever quality of product they produce. That’s capitalism.
I have no problem purchasing a quality item for a quality price. That makes sense.
I only have a problem when a company specifically makes a product at a grossly higher price than the time, materials, or construction demand *and* the U.S. government gladly forks over the money because, hey, it’s just the taxpayers money. We can get more whenever we need it.
I want our troops to be supplied with the best quality equipment they require at a price that isn’t specifically soaking the taxpayers because manufacturers know, “We can charge the government whatever we want, and they’ll pay it.”
So my problems in pricing are not with the manufacturers. The market will sort them out. My problems are with government personnel and policies that waste taxpayer money on items with unnecessarily high prices.
If a manufacturer makes a $200 pair of pants and charges the government $1,000/pair, the government needs to pass. There will always be someone to buy the latest tacticool products regarldess of the price. In fact, some prefer the outrageously expensive items so they can feel more elite with their latest tacticool bag.
But we don’t need our government spending on the equivalent of a $200 HDMI Monster cable when there are $20 HDMI cables of the exact same quality providing the exact same performance.
That’s the only time I am annoyed at the prices. I know these hyper-expensive products are going to be purchased by very, very few people who actually need them. They will be purchased by tacticool collectors or us, the taxpayers.
Buy cheap – buy twice!
Since switching over to premium underwear, I have *never* looked back.
Comfort and circulation are improved. Chafing reduced. Service life increased.
Yo comprende quality and its cost.
My point exactly.
Hey go the real way and just scrap the underwear all together. COMANDO FOR A REASON!
P.S. – On a different site, I asked what people were actually going to use the latest tacticool hyper-expensive product for. There were a lot of comments. They attacked me for asking. They talked about all the people they knew who would buy one. But not one answered the question. Hopefully they actually had a good reason for the purchase but they would have to kill me if they told me. However, I think the majority were simply tacticool collectors who wanted to show off their latest toy. That’s fine. Everyone needs a hobby. Just call it what it is. 🙂
I’ll take name brand toilet paper over generic any day. 🙂
Most people don’t realize the little things that they don’t see add up. Making a material less reflective or harder to see on thermal/night vision costs money, but you can’t actually see it unless you have the equipment. That company also only makes the one pair of pants from that one material so it costs money. Placement of seams, how it os sewed, cut and angle of cuts, all make a huge difference. Most people don’t understand that and never will. Only cheap pants I love so far are my Levis Denizen athletic cut. They are the best I have ever worn for $30
I posted this as a reply to someone the other day, I have edited it slightly to fit this thread… original thread was about a small item made by a custom shop (the mega canteen pouch post).
Costs beyond materials and time that small time OEMs have:
rent
material costs
cost for sew machine
communication cost
credit card processing fee
computers to conduct sale on
printer for transaction
accounting fee
time spent developing the product
health care
business insurance
internet business costs
webmaster fees
shipping
driving to post office for USPS shipping
storage of unsold products (if applicable)
marketing
and time, time, time, time, off work on forums, social media, email, the phone…
oh, and after fees are done, take off 35% for Uncle Sugar (taxes) he always gets his cut, from your check, and from the business’ check.
Then the HARD fact that in the gear industry, you don’t sell thousands, more like hundreds if lucky, but in reality you usually sell dozens, until you are really big, and I’m talking TD or LAPG big.
Honestly, there actually is more on the production side, but I think that gets the point across.
Does it suck? Yes, but the production cost, or even in my case the retailing/stocking costs are pretty high, and the margins in this business SUCK. It’s a passion, not a place to get rich for most.
Some people just don’t get in the weeds, most have never had to lay off (or even fire) an employee, or cut salaries, or choose high risk inventory orders in hopes of orders that may not come. Meanwhile competition is absorbing the market by paying shit to their employees and offering free shipping, bonus programs etc. all in an effort to put your employees on the street.
This industry is right now on the cusp of massive failures, and the tactical wal-marts and legacy small businesses with repeat clientele are gonna win. US made gear isn’t even an issue to 80% of the current gear buying public. Most don’t have a clue what material is what, or what kind of stitching to look for. Most people see a Mayflower chest rig and a Condork and don’t know the difference other than one costs $50 which they have as opposed to $250 which will buy them more wolf ammo for their bushhamster M4gery and possibly a class with a horrible instructor who might shoot their car door while stomping on their hi-point.
Just some perspective from a 13 year industry insider who started in his bedroom to avoid half these costs. I learned most of this the hard way, some the easy way, and some from watching others.
Reminder, this was a reply to another thread, so context is slightly off. I’m on my phone so I can’t do a crazy rewrite.
Maybe they’ll read it this time.
Amen
Jon,
Great post. Always happy to order from OPT.
Very True, also if its ok with you I am going to start using “condork”
Absolutely!
Good reply Jon!
You make a very good point but at the same time, not everybody needs top end gear. Take me for instance, I love tac gear, I like wearing it for hiking and (car) camping, for that I don’t need several hundred dollar Gucci gear, I just want something functional and inexpensive because I know that I’m not going downrange with any of it and my life won’t depend on any of it. So there’s definitely a market for cheaper gear, it’s just that your range rangers and mall ninjas all want the real deal when, for their purposes, airsoft level gear is more than adequate. So there’s a market for both high quality gear used by SOCOM and at the same time there’s a market for lower priced gear for people who either just want the look or just won’t be using it that hard.
That being said, if I were still in, I’d probably be buying some of the more expensive stuff that often shows up here. But at the same time, even if I were still in I know that I’m not going to be kicking in doors and running up and down the hills of Afghanistan so I’d still try to find the most affordable gear possible that’s meant for real world use.
This is why I maintain regular, yet still within spec, gear on my site. Not everyone wants Crye, etc. but wants quality and durability associated with military gear without it falling apart during use.
My hero is Martin Shkreli. He’s what American made products and red-blooded patriotism are all about. Either cope with free market capitalism or leave the country. Those are your two options.
Make America something something!
I always say you get what you pay for, so don’t go cheap on what’s important. But that’s not an excuse to spend foolishly.
I have always had the opinion of quality is way better then quantity. I bought I PIG carrier in 06 and used it on two deployments. Only time it failed was when we went to the range on the FOB in Afghanistan. It caught a stray round in the buckle. Emailed SKD. they sent me a new buckle. No questions asked. No I was t wearing it. It was laying on the tire next to our M ATV. caught the round or a steel target. Not a big deal.
This is the same rant given every time a Kitanica add pops up. It ignores the basis for stating my opinion, which is that I OWN a pair of their pants. This latest round had nothing to do with me, or my long past single comment about Kitanica, but, the $5/6 pack ridicule works, so run it.
I also own Kifaru, Otte Gear, TAD, LaSportiva, and a few other brands that cost a LOT, but, don’t bitch about the cost for them, and, funny enough, have bought from those guys more than once. And, love them all. Their designs, materials, and construction quality are all bomber. Most are made in US/Canada. (IDK about LaSportiva, Italy?)
I guess I’ll just buy Fjallraven or Patagonia or something else for pants going forward, and, everyone, ignore an opinion on value of from someone based on perceived value based on actual use.
We’re all a bunch of dicks that don’t make enough. We are all going to complain about the cost of items at some point. The difference being if your critique isn’t constructive and realistic then you’re just being a whiny SOB.
Too much? Don’t buy it. Don’t bitch about it. Just move along. Amazing thing, before the inturwebz, less commenting, more moving along.
Wish it were still that way.
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price has been forgotten.” I know I can’t afford (or have no use) for a lot of the gear posted here, but looking at all the gee-whiz stuff is fun…but the inevitable gripes about cost do get tiresome. Can’t afford it? Don’t need it? Never going to find yourself in a situation needing it? Don’t comment! Nothing to see here…
The majority of folks complaining here likely have no real end-user need for the type of kit they gripe about…and those who do have that need likely aren’t fronting the costs associated with it, as it’s issued or specially ordered through the agency outfitting them.
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”
You beat me to it. Should have read the comments first.
The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
I find this to be a true and personal issue. As our product is very expensive to manufacture at the moment we sacrificed our own over head to ensure that we can bring a product to market that our customers and myself can safely and effectively use in combat or the worst conditions.
It took us 3 years of design and R&D to ensure that our product is not only dependable but will not fail you. While we have received many complaints for our cost we are not even at a full 2-1 price ratio. Those of you who truly understand this know that we are not making the money we need to let alone can not yet afford a distributor because of our over head costs.
It pains me when customers can not appreciate that adage; buy once cry once. I can say with pride if you buy our product you will have it for a very long time.
No.
These things cost a lot because of the Berry Amendment, Buy American Act, and other protectionist regulations that prevented certain industries from globalizing and finding more automated solutions when they move back to the States, as a lot of industries are doing, due to crappy overseas quality.
Also, ITAR covers way too many things and probably shouldn’t even exist except, perhaps, for tanks and fighter jets and such. So the customer pool is artificially constricted, which disallows certain economies of scale.
And finally, because a lot of contracting officers aren’t all that bright, and the ones that are, are overworked, or have been burned too many times when they try to play hardball in negotiations and their customer gets someone in the chain of command to override the contracting officer’s attempt at being a good steward. So when kitanica or the tactical put up some absurd price on their website to try and fool the gov that they’re quoting “market price” the contracting officer just signs the damn purchase order and moves on to some other order where they actually have an opportunity to save the taxpayer some money.
Actually, I don’t know any government customers who pay retail unless they do a GPC purchase online.
Almost all issued gear is produced by the lowest bidder of a contract. When your life depends on it, are you really going to trust that the manufacture has followed all the specs?
I think the readers of “The Firearm Blog” are the best at complaining about cost.