Considering how popular 6.5 Creedmoor has become, I understand why the did it, but I’m not sure it follows Col Cooper’s sedition of a Scout Rifle. What say you?
Photos from Steyr Arms USA.
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Cooper wont be pleased. The executive who thought this up will most likely be hit by lightning.
I respectfully disagree with Gerard.
As a Cooper fan and reader since I was a boy in the early ’70s, I believe the Colonel would have agreed the superior ballistics of the Creed v. the .308, 7/08, .243 and .223 would make it acceptable to him
I met Col Cooper at the SHOT Show Steyr booth when the Steyr Scout was introduced. We spoke about the concept for a few minutes as he autographed my library of his work. Twice he admonished me, ‘Don’t get rid of this.’ referring to works that were out of print. The look on his face when I handed him my copy of G&A’s Cooper on Handguns still in the cellophane wrapper was priceless. I had had Jim Brockman build me a pseudo Scout a couple of years earlier. Anyway, I think the Colonel would dismayed at a scout rifle in 6.5 Creedmoore. He often commented that we don’t need new calibers. We need a better delivery system. He observed 7-08 was acceptable in countries that forbid civilian ownership of military calibers, but when Steyr announced the introduction of the Scout Rifle in .223 He expressed frustration. (Not sure if they followed thru.) I think he would feel 6.5 CM is too light for a true Scout.
He preferred 30-06 to 308, but a long action wouldn’t make length/weight restrictions. If anything, he suggested going heavier. See his observations on the Lion Scout and “Baby.”
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Agreed, I don’t know what .308 really does any better than 6.5… Heavier bullets for some large game maybe, but 6.5 should have the same or better sectional density.
I’d hit it.
Another consideration I failed to touch on is ammunition availability and logistics. I will not have a caliber that I can’t buy at Mom and Pop’s in Backwater, USA. I don’t want to think about trying to find 6.5 in Africa if I ever make it there. People have and do get seperated from their ammo when they travel. I want my Scout to be ammo compatible with my other primary rifles. I don’t think I’ll ever see an HK 91 in 6.5 Creedmoore.
The outfitter I used for Kudu hunt this year in SA had 6.5 CMs and they really like them on non dangerous game replacing a lot of the 300WM and 308s they had with 6.5s and said finding ammo is a bit more difficult but not hard by any means.
7mm-08 was considered acceptable by Cooper anywhere the 308w was not legal, so why would 6.5mm CM be shunned by Cooper??? He would probably have been a fan of modern, high BC hunting rounds and newer, cleaner, more temp stable powders.
I am on my fourth steyr scout (3x 308w and one 376.Steyr) and I WOULD NOT recommend one in 308w. If you must have one, take it in 7mm-08 or 6.5CM.
The 308w Scouts are effectively now only shooting their best with 150-155gr bullets. They have only been been made as 1:12 twist for MANY YEARS, but marketed as 1:10 twist for many years.
The 1:12 twist, combined with a very long 2.9-3.1” chamber used in Steyr SBS 308w rifles means you WILL NOT stabilize 190gr+ bullets well. This renders their European 1/2-20” threaded barrels pointless.
You can’t stabilize subsonic 190-220gr projectiles with such a long chamber and slow twist so FORGET a suppressor. (You’re also adding weight in a can + adapter on a rifle meant to have a minimum of weight?)
FORGET bullets that can’t handle a big jump into the lands
FORGET bullets that need to be jammed
You’ll be able to shoot so-so with 165-180gr bullets, but make no mistake. If you want the best accuracy, you’ll fall back to shooting 150-155gr.
What does that mean?
Effectively, you should have just bought a 6.5mm CM and slung 140/143 ELD-X’s out of it and called it a day.
I met Col. Cooper at the SHOT Show the year Steyr introduced the Scout Rifle. We discussed the concept for a few minutes while he autographed my library of his work. If yout read Cooper a frequent refrain is that we don’t need new calibers. We need a better delivery system. He preferred the 30-06 to the 308, but a long action wouldn’t make length/weight criteria for a scout rifle. He did allow that 7-08 would be adequate for Latin America countries where civilian ownership of military cartridge chambered weapons are prohibited. I believe he would be baffled by the whole 6.5 Creedmoore phenomenon. Especially in a scout rifle.
One thing Cooper believed in was readily available ammunition, off-the shelf and in quantity, almost anywhere in the world. It’s gonna be a long while before 6.5 CM is anywhere near that.
In that case, 7.62×54? But if we’re going to a place where that caliber is common maybe scrounge for an SVD?
This is where I’m at with the Scout/Practical rifle concept. I get Cooper’s rationale for .308 or 7mm-08 in a pinch, but when ammo shortages occur, .308 seems to either get scarce or more expensive in my area. I’d like to see a scout rifle in a more “panic/ban resistant” caliber, like .30-06 or .270.
6.5 Creedmoor is a great round, but it really shines in a precision rifle, vs a scout, where ruggedness, handiness, and close to mid range target engagement (and matching optics) are more the name of the game. I agree with the gentleman above regarding availability.
You have to live under a rock to not have 6.5 creedmore readily available at any of your local stores. There’s been more 6.5 creedmore options than .308 here in the middle of nowhere Montana for well over a year now. It costs basically the same as .308 and does nearly everything better. Plus with the rise of the internet, pretty much all ammunition besides strange or obsolete cartridges are not hard to get a hold of.
It was pretty easy to find in South Africa when I was there this year.
Sorry, when I didn’t see my first comments I didn’t think they had went through. New cell phone. Please disregard this one.
6.5CM passes the “Walmart and/or Academy Availability Test.”
.308 sucks. This rifle is the best incarnation of a production Scout there is (based on checking blocks from the concept list). I see 6.5CM in a lot more places than 7mm-08 and it performs better than anything Cooper wrote about in his day. 6.5CM is everywhere.
Yeah, “.308 sucks”…said the doe I laid down, dead in her tracks a couple weeks ago. This caliber debate is probably like the knife geeks who must have every newest “super steel” ever and the top end steel from a couple years ago suddenly “sucks”.
It is hard to contemplate how many deer and bad guys Americans have put down with .308. There will always be some fancy caliber coming over the horizon but that .308 in the safe is already paid for and accompanied by a full stock of ammo.
I guess I should say, the rifle looks cool to me and if you got a use for it, go for it. From an economics perspective, if you got cash burning a hole in your bank account, go ahead, buy ’em all, but if you’re gonna slap these new toys on a credit card, it is not a wise choice. Just my 2 Cents, good day, gentlemen.
The .308 will still be around in 20 years while the 6.5 CR will be relegated to the special order catalog. Just my opinion.
I understand what you’re saying, but the question was; What would Col. Cooper think of a scout rifle in 6.5? My answer, based on what I’ve read and my conversation with the man, is not much. The only reason he mentioned 7-08 is for where military calibers are prohibited. In that case I suppose 6.5 would be acceptable. Remember, he would like to have used the 30-06, but a long action wouldn’t make weight/length criteria. As for 6.5 ammo availability, If it’s common that’s great, but that still doesn’t address, for me at least, that I want all my primary rifles in the same caliber. Logistics. Like I said, I don’t think I’m going to find an H&K 91 in 6.5 anytime soon. Besides, the sister rifle to my Brockman scout, both built on Stainless Winchester model 70 actions, is 308. For the same reason. The sister is a conventional setup. M-1 rifle? Rebarreled in 308. I have somewhere between 5000-10,000 rds of 308. Not dumping that just to switch to the new darling of the gun rags. As to Steyr Scout accuracy, a friend owns one. His shoots heavier bullets fine. He took a monster 7X7 elk two years ago with a 180 gr pill and shoots 168 gr Ballistic Silvertips for whitetail. I’ve been to lots of autopsies. I was at one following a recent hunting camp discussion on calibers. Post autopsy, I asked the M.E. if could tell which caliber had been used if they were reasonably similar. He replied, “Sure, if you bring me the cartridge case so I can read what’s stamped on the rim.”
There are four different 6.5 Creed loads available at my closest Wally Whirled, and one deer load is just a tick above $18 per box. They sell out quick!
Don’t yet own a Creed, but admire it’s decade-long overnight success!
I’m a .260 Rem guy and never considered a 7-08. Also never seen either for sale at a Wally or other big box retailer.
The Creed kicks like a .243, shoots flatter than .300 WM, and hits harder than .308 after a few hundred yards. What’s not to like?
And keep in mind the Colonel actually made a hot wildcat 9mm with cut down 5.56 cases in the ’70s, and doted on the Norma 10mm in a DA/SA pistol!
But,after looking closely at the rifle photo again, it appears to be threaded! I like that,too!
And you don’t even have to shoot it. If the deer knows you are using a 6.5 they just drop dead for you.
I began reading Col. Cooper in the early/mid seventies. Must have been about 13-14 yoa at the time. He wrote Cooper on Handguns at the time for Guns and Ammo. Made money doing odd jobs to support my gun habit. Weren’t those the days? Walked down the road with a shotgun over my shoulder and a mess of small game (usually squirrels, rabbits and the odd wood duck). Would go to Ora’s Oyster Bar for lunch. Leaned my shotgun against the wall outside. Dropped my game vest on the ground next to it and went inside for a dozen on the halfshell before going home to clean what I had taken. Never gave a thought to my shotgun outside. Of course, no one would have given it a thought if I had brought it in either. Said all that to say this: Colonel Cooper wouldn’t have given a rat’s ass in a third world backwater about the 6.5 Creedmoore.
Well, if you read my original post I said I don’t want a caliber that I can’t find at Mom and Pop’s, Backwater, USA. Now Bud Eddelman’s in Telogia (that’s just before you fall off into about a half million acres of Appalachicola National Forest and Tate’s Hell Swamp Wildlife Management Area) ain’t got no 6.5 Creedmoore in any load. Neither does Thompson’s just down the road. If you want 30-30, 30-06, 270, 243, 7mm mag, 00 buck shot, and yes 308, they got you covered. Wally World? Bass Pro? Academy? 120 miles round trip. Gas is cheap and time is free. Go getcha some!
Again, the original question was; what would Col. Cooper think of the scout rifle in 6.5 Creedmoore? I think he would be dismayed. Read his work! He said repeatedly we don’t need new calibers. We need a better bullet launcher. The scout rifle. He repeatedly said that the only reason manufactures came out with new calibers was to sell new guns. Nothing wrong with that as long as you see it for what it is. My point earlier with the conversation with the medical examiner is that, within reason, it doesn’t matter what you shoot something with. We’re just arguing ballistic minutiae. I’m much more interested in the RIFLE.