The Marine Corps has added the V-22 to the aircraft at HMX-1 tasked with Presidential and executive support. Notice the paint job does not include the white top so we’d be safe in surmising that this will be used for support functions.
Still not sure on the designation, so for now, this remains an MV-22 which in and of itself is ridiculous for a Marine aircraft to carry the M prefix, long used for Special Operations aircraft.
What a complete lack of respect to the tax payers $. The President already has countless aircraft, limos and eveb two mega bus RVs… what the heck does he need an Osprey for? This is why we have a huge debt! The maintainence of the Presidentail armada has gotten way out of cotrol… I believe there are as many as six helos, two jumbo jets, a couple of smaller exec. jets… the RVs and limos… COME ON!
Well the current Sea Kings are getting a bit geriatric..
So where you complaining when Bushed ordered the VH-71 which”In March 2008, the program cost had risen and was projected to cost a total $11.2 billion,[13] or about $400 million per helicopter.[1]” And we invested $1.7billion into project before it got axed …
And then we sold the 9 air frames produced to the Canada for spares for $164 million
The DOD aircraft designation system designates aircraft based on a series of letters and numbers which indicate Mission-Design-Series, commonly referred to as “Type/Model/Series” or “T/M/S”.
The M in MV-22B indicates that it is a “multi-mission” aircraft. This has nothing to do with special operations but rather the capabilities, design, and use of the aircraft.
The official description of the MV-22 is “VTOL aircraft (Osprey) used to support amphibious assaults from Amphibious Assault Ships, general and multi-purpose class.”
While it is true that many special operation aircraft carry the M mission designation, they are special operation aircraft because they are used by special operations forces, not because of a letter. There are a number of special operations birds without the M designation (the AFSOC’s CV-22 comes to mind).
While few in number, there are also other aircraft which carry the M mission designation but are not special operations aircraft. Some examples are: MQ-1s, MQ-9s, MH-68, MH-65. One would be hard pressed to describe these as special operations aircraft.
If you were familiar with the mission sets MV-22Bs are conducting in Afghanistan every day, you would understand that M is an appropriate mission designator and is far from “ridiculous.” And even if carrying special operations troops is the metric by which you “earn” an M mission designation, USMC MV-22Bs often insert and extract special operations forces in Afghanistan. They do not exclusively carry Marines.
Read DOD 4120.15-L “Model Designation of Military Aerospace Vehicles” (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/412015l.pdf) if you want to understand more about how T/M/S designations work.
Thanks for dropping that knowledge bomb. 🙂
Epic. Thanks for elaborating.
I’m quite familiar with how MDS are designated. And I’m sure that this was exactly how the conversation went when they decided to designate the Marine V-22s. “Yeah, we can designate is MV. That will make them special.” It’s not about the piece of kit, it’s about how you use it.
That whole line of thinking is laughable. You don’t get to wake up one morning and say, “Hey, we’re special.” Dropping some SOF guys off when dedicated aircraft aren’t available is just one step away from, “We had a beer with some SOF guys once and so now we are too.” You notice how that USMC pitch to take over all of SOCOM’s V-22s went right?
There’s no pissing contest here and no picking on anyone. This is the way of the world. Guys who have lived in it understand that. Guys who haven’t try to come up with ways to cut corners. Corner cutters cause missions to fail.
I agree with the entirety of paragraphs 2 and 3.
M doesn’t mean what you think it means (reference the linked pub above). M doesn’t mean special operations and that’s a fact–about as close to a dictionary definition as you can get. And I don’t know anyone in the MV-22 community who walks around thinking we’re special operations. And if they do, they’re wrong.
Calling a DOD designation ridiculous is ridiculous. And blaming today’s Marines, who fix and fly those aircraft, for it equally so.
Our platform (MV-22) is a multi-mission platform. That’s what M means. The MQ-1 Predator is a multi-mission platform. The MH-47 is a multi-mission platform. That’s what that those Ms mean as well. M doesn’t mean special operations nor has it ever been reserved for special operations. It just so happens that special operations forces tend to require multi-mission birds. All square are rectangles…
It seems just a bit insulting to saddle an entire aviation community (who frankly look at ourselves as bus drivers in the sky) with a personal misconception that is not grounded in fact.
sorry to twist those panties. carry on.
Ok, so what Chris didn’t do is mention two words, “Eagle Claw”. If you don’t know what that is or how it relates to SOF and Marine aviation then do some research. Then ask yourself, why would the Marine Corps use that designation when, as much as he attempts to rationalize it, is traditionally used for SOF MDS.
Once you put this entire discussion into the perspective of history, then it takes on a much different aspect.
“is traditionally used for SOF MDS.” You can repeat yourself as much as you like. That doesn’t make you any less incorrect.
Your vitriol has gone from unprofessional to childish.
There’s nothing childish about a disaster of national importance. I’ve shared some behind the curtain sentiment here. You don’t have to like it. This is the way of the world.
So just to clarify, you’re basing the current special operations capability of Marine Corps aviation on a disastrous event that took place over 30 years ago?
Notice there are no Marine aviation units in SOCOM. Memories are long.
There were no Marine Corps units in SOCOM at all until a few years ago. Clearly not due to a lack of capability by any means. I really think judging an entire branch of aviators based off of a catastrophic ACCIDENT 33 years ago, especially considering over a decade of conflict/resulting development of abilities that we have had since then, is really an ignorant narrative. Surprising, coming from you of all people.
Spend some time in SOCOM, particularly with the affected command and their aviators and you’ll hear plenty of it and more. Their memories are long. The Marines made their pitch for a SOF aviation element and it was turned down. The fact is that there was almost not a ground element either but for other reasons.
By the way, the accident was part and parcel to the reliability and skill of the aviators on that mission and left a bad taste in a lot of mouths. The mission was already scrubbed at that point due to the helos and the accident was a very icing on top of the cake resulting in American fatalities. It can be easily dismissed as an accident by someone without a connection to the past and to that community, but the actions of those helo pilots on that mission still haunt this nation today. The phrase, “Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability” finds its genesis in that operation.
My position isn’t surprising at all if you actually knew me and my experiences in the service. My point of view is shared by many.
I agree with james, total waste of taxpayer money. You know the POTUS will not fly in this aircraft so what is the point? Another choice for brownnosers to use when travel to push the President’s agendas, see Eric Holder.
I think you have a misunderstanding of exactly who has access let alone use of the HMX aircraft.
Remember this is taking the place of the ch-46 at HMX. Used for general support in the dc area of military personnel and the president on the road. Simply replacing aircraft that already exist. The best choice of aircraft, probably not but it is what it is.
If it were any glossier they’d have to add mud flaps and curb feelers.
HMX-1 supports training at OCS, TBS, and Infantry Officer Course. It’ll get put to use.
They have had that crazy colour scheme for years.
Yes, they do a lot more than scoot the POTUS around.
MV, at least now, simply designates it is a USMC aircraft; CV an Air Force aircraft, which AFSOC owns…and they are significantly different from the MVs in some of the stuff that goes in them. I work at the V-22 plant, there are about 15 downstairs in various stages of construction.
First I would like to say, I know little on The V-22 compared to an expert. But I agree this is huge waste of tax payer money because I’ll make any bet th POTUS will never ride in it. Which means a waste. gunslinger6 out.
The Marine Corps requires aircraft aside from those designated to carry VIPs for other roles. As they are retiring the CH-46 the V-22 is the replacement. In fact, that is much of the V-22’s weakness. It was intended as a one-for-one replacement for the CH-46. With wings folded it takes the same amount of deck space as the 46 and has the same cabin size meaning it is designed to fit an M-151 Jeep. When is the last time you’ve seen one of those?
IIRC he canceled the order of replacement helos for the detail shortly after getting elected the first term.
He gavels is a flight of three helos, preceded by an advance team that might show up normal paint schemes. I’m not sure it’s a total waste just because he won’t fly in it. The support forces are huge.
The “M” in MV-22 stands for medium. As in medium lift capability aircraft, like the CH-46.
M does not stand for medium. It is for Multi-Mission.
If a version of the V-22 was modified to carry the President like the current VH-3, would it be designated a VV-22?
If…it might be. That would make sense.
Wow, butt hurt all around. I think SSD is right about desert one and eagle claw. It is the reason for the Osprey; to have an aircraft that would be able to complete a similar mission in one period of darkness. “Dream Machine” is about as good a book as you could find about the Osprey. It lays it all out there.
However, there is more to the story about why there isn’t a Marine aviation Branch to USSOCOM than the story of Desert One. Desert one is why the Marine Corps started its now defunct (in a hiatus really) MEU(SOC) program. Desert one is also the reason why there is a USSOCOM and why there is a 160th SOAR.
Why, with MARSOC established there isn’t a Marine aviation component to USSOCOM is a wholly different topic but it has nothing to do with any kind of leftover feelings about desert one and Eagle Claw. Long memories be damned. That’s like saying Marines are still mad at the Navy and Fletcher leaving us at Guadalcanal. We’re not but that’s one reason why the Navy’s army has its own air force (Marine Air).
Interestingly enough, Marine aviation supports conventional and SOF units quite regularly and there aren’t many complaints. Also interesting is that Marines are the only service that does not directly contribute aircraft and aircrew to USSOCOM. Hell, even the Navy is putting 60s up for USSOCOM use: HSC-84 and 85.
MV22B in support of the president is natural progression for this aircraft which costs less per seat/flight hour/mile than any other RW aircraft.