I am posting this with the best of intentions but as I haven’t seen a ghost ring for a pistol in ages, I am hoping to foster some discussion about the merits of the concept. However, I am fully aware that this could go off the rails unless we choose to be constructive and discuss the pros and cons.
Last night I ran across the Rear Aperture Pistol Sight or RAPS for GLOCK pistols being offered by White Raven Communications. Admittedly, I haven’t used it. On one hand, I’m intrigued with the concept considering the current rage of putting MIni Red dot Sights on pistols. Let’s face it, pistol recoil beats the heck out of the MRDS so maybe there’s something to the RAPS. On the other hand, I’m not sure that I’m going to be able to focus on my front sight. Is the RAPS a true ghost ring and if so, will the ring “ghost”?
According to White Raven Communications, RAPS was specifically designed for the following:
Beginner pistol shooters – Provides improved sight picture and sight alignment
Advanced pistol shooters – Fast and intuitive sight alignment, sight picture, and target awareness
Home Defense – Ease of use when under duress
Low Light Situations – Large rear aperture enables quick pickup of front sight
Easy Installation – Nearly anyone with just a few tools can remove factory sights and install the RAPS.
But, they do note that the RAPS isn’t a one-size-fits-all affair.
This sight should not be used for competitive shooting where finite accuracy is required. This sight is for close range, self defense, and home defense at ranges out to 10 to 15 meters. Due to the design and the large rear aperture, extreme accuracy is hard to achieve at ranges of 25 meters and beyond.
So what do you think? Has anyone used RAPS or another ghost ring sight on a pistol?
Thought this old concept had died after sufficient testing.
Pistol rear sights are held too far from the eye for the “ghost ring” concept to work. What you have instead is a small aperture sight a long way from the eye, which requires extra time to align. It’s slower and less accurate than conventional iron sight arrangements.
I predict it will gain a rapid following in the “what is new must be good” crowd, then after maybe 6 months will completely die off and disappear except for a very few, very vocal adherents.
Here’s an article from last year which explains the objections better than I did.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/07/16/ghost-ring-pistol-sights/
Not enough distance between front sight and rear for accurate shooting. I put one on my Glock 17 (not this brand but similar and 3 dot tritium). Took it off for a 3 dot style tritium after a few months. Fast but accuracy suffered in my hands. Just too much space to allow for misread of windage. If speed is what you are looking for I think something like XS sights would be better for the pistol. I still like the old 3 dot and now am becoming more partial to small RMR’s with co witnessed Irons
Played with them years ago, wound up cutting the top half of the ring off and going with a red fiber front. Now prefer a red fiber or TFO front and a large U notch rear.
For a pistol thats only a static nightstand, home defense tool it my have some value. My eyes take a couple of seconds to focus now when I wake up. Keep in mind it does negate the smooth lines and no snag designs of most carry pistols with that high silhouette.
My basic concern with putting that sight setup on any of my pistols is that it will make it harder to make precise aimed shots with any speed. This is a big issue for most of us seen as we can’t run around carrying cannons so that any hit on target is a near certain one shot stop We have to carry actual handguns were shot placement matters and being able to put the rounds in a tight group where you intend is more important than being able to snap off a quick imprecise shot.
Unless you are shooting at long pistol distances, which you won’t be, in self defense situations, the RAPS is very speedy, and precise. After one trip to the range, I could put multiple shots in the middle of a 6″ paper plate quickly at up to 15-20 feet. One handed, or two. Right or left. I am 64 years old and not an expert shooter by any means. I do have an XS big dot on my front, and that might have made a difference, but I would recommend this set up to anyone with a Glock who wants to improve their self defense shooting immediately. They don’t cost much, so you should try it and maybe your “basic concern” wouldn’t be such a concern.
I’ve tried them, as have others at my office and the consensus was-we hated them. Ghost rings and circular ‘peep’ sights work well on long-guns, however, (in our experience) this doesn’t transfer over to pistols. It was difficult to attain a consistent sight picture and reliable point of impact, especially at distance. Just when you think you’re doing it right-you’re not. It was very frustrating.
I think that a notch and post allows the user to better self-correct sight alignment. The circular rear aperture didn’t allow this, in our experience.
Sadly, this concept is definitely not new and not the “cutting edge” of firearms technology. Steve Wickert first hand-made this type of rear sight in the late 80’s and early 90’s while working with instructors like Robbie Barkman of ROBAR and Louis Awerbuck. The sight was the only alternative solution for shooters with astigmatism/ophthalmic disabilities at the time. My brother still uses the original Wickert today on his Colt Commander.
Arotek still markets a similar rear sight. Wayne Novak utilizes a large, semi-circular rear notch as a compromise. In my opinion, the rear-mounted “red-dot” optic like the Trijicon RMR is the current, best solution for those with ophthalmic disabilities.
Looks like another well known company that supports the gun-fighter is pursuing similar concept for pistol sighting (put entire link into browser to view patent and nomenclature):
http://pdfpiw.uspto.gov/.piw?PageNum=0&docid=08448373&IDKey=C1EC85245A55&HomeUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D8448373.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F8448373%2526RS%3DPN%2F8448373
I have used ghost ring sights on my glocks for well over 15 years with fantastic results.
Played with the version from Aro-Tek something like 15 years ago. They’re very fast at contact distance, but as has been stated, lose accuracy at distance. I too ended up cutting off the top half due to it blocking my field of vision.
Returned to standard night sights and haven’t thought about these since.
Shot a ghost ring on a 10mm glock in alaska, it wasn’t too bad. I know there are other companies that make them but you can’t use them in most competitions. I have a fiber/tritium sight from Ameriglo and they make a ghost ring with lamps in them I think….
Again, it’s not bad, just takes getting used to.
Well, At least people are talking about it.
What makes me laugh most is that most or all of the comments are very true – For people that are good or proficient shooters.
However, what we fail to realize is that we randomly picked a few of our wives, grand parents or kids and gave them a pistol to shoot at the range or heaven forbid under duress, that wife, grand parent or child will struggle to use the sights. If you’ve ever taught pistol classes you know what I mean.
These sights are far easier to use for that crowd of people. That’s who they are being sold for. And they are affordable and you don’t require an armorer to install them like many other sights.
If you like or love your custom sights, stay with them, no one is trying to get you (the proficient shooter) to switch.
I personally use Warren Concealed Carry sights, but I use them often and think I need to be able to hit targets at 25 yards. My wife, kids and parents would be happy to hit paper at 10 yards while at the range, let alone if they were in a stressful situation.
If the product isn’t for you and your skill set, why be a hater?!?
I’m with you on them being maybe simpler/easier for the uninitiated to pick up, I went with Ashley Express Big Dots on a 19 I set up for my mother. At 70 she can still see as good as ever but getting her to the range often is a hassel. The Big Dots are a big simple lolly-pop sight picture thats hard to miss or miss align.
I have used them and they work for me……+1 on the not being ideal for finite shooting
Just to insert a bit of science, part of what may make ghost rings on pistols not “ghost” as well as they do on rifles/other long guns is accommodation.
Accommodation is the eye changing its own power. You know how focusing on near and far targets feels differently? If you hold up your finger right in front of your eye and suddenly switch from looking at a distant object to looking at your finger, your eye changes its own power to focus on the closer in object.
For those of you who are older, you feel the effects of age in presbyopia. You know how it may becomes more difficult to focus on the front sight when shooting? That’s because your eye loses its ability to accommodate and focus on close objects, like the front sight.
So back to the sights. With a long gun, the rear ghost ring is SO close to your eye that it is very difficult to be focused. Unless you strain your eyes a lot, you won’t focus the rear ghost ring because doing so takes a lot of accommodation power. So your eye just lets it fuzz out and remain unfocused. You’ll note when it blocks your vision but your eye doesn’t focus it so it doesn’t appear very crisp. One less crisp thing in your field of view makes focusing on the front sight and the target that much easier.
Unfortunately, with pistols, the ghost ring is much farther out in front of you. Far enough that the difference in refractive power to focus on each is much smaller.
So if your normal eye’s power is around 60 diopters, to focus on the ghost ring about 2 inches in front of your face, you might have to accommodate and jack up your refractive power to (I didn’t do the math but let’s say) 70 diopters which is completely possible for younger people. Meanwhile, to focus on the front sight you’d only need about (say) ~61 diopters which is very little accommodation. It’s a pain in the ass to bounce back and forth between 70 diopters and 61 diopters so you let your eye relax and fuzz out the rear sight.
But with the pistol, the difference in accommodation needed to switch between focusing the rear sight and front sight is much less. Say you need 64 diopters to focus the front sight and 65 diopters to focus the rear sight. If your eye accommodates to about 64.25 diopters, the rear sight is still pretty darn clear so it isn’t “ghosting out” as it does on a long gun. So with pistols, the ghost ring won’t ghost out of the way as it should.
I’ve always wanted to try one of these, I don’t expect it to be the bee’s knees, but I’ve always been curious.
Here’s my take on RAPS. I have a Glock 19 with XS Big Dot sights. I removed the rear XS sight and replaced it with the RAPS. Immediate front sight picture improved right away. Just place that big dot in the circle, and your are on target quickly. Very accurate. At 10, 15, 20 feet, you can almost put the shots in the same hole. Still very fast and accurate at 30-40 feet. These distances, especially the shorter distances, are realistic self defense distances. I never shoot at targets at 25 yards, but I set up a 10″ paper plate at 25yds and was still able to aim and put the rounds on the plate with this set up, and I would never be shooting at anyone at that distance. Now, maybe it’s the front big dot sight that makes it this easy to shoot, but I would recommend the RAPS to anyone who wants to improve their shooting immediately. You still have to use good trigger control, but for realistic self defense distances, you can’t beat it. This was my first trip to the range after installing the sight, which is very easy to install. You get used to it quickly. The only drawback is if it is completely dark, you might not know if you are seeing the front sight through the ring, or off to the side, or over the ring. But how many times are you going to be shooting in total darkness, and if you are, it is just as dark for the other guy too. And with a little practice, you can tell when the sight is in the ring even when it is dark. And another thing, if you are closer than 9 or 10 feet from your target, you don’t need sights anyway, you can just point and shoot. So, I’m giving the RAPS a two thumbs up from my experience after one outing.