The Army keeps rumbling that it is going to undertake what others have failed to do, select a new sidearm. Both SOCOM and the US Air Force have started new pistol programs that were later dropped virtually, before they began. This time, the Army wants to look at calibers other than 9mm. Few things get Mudge more worked up than the age old 9mm vs .45 debate so we’ll see if we can get him to go thermo-nuclear. Let’s open the argument up to every pistol caliber.
What say you? Which caliber do you think DoD should adopt? My money is on status qou, caliber, pistol and all. Even that crappy Blackhawk holster.
Why not reexamine a 5.56 PDW for the force?
This divides into 3 problems: ammo, pistol, and training/doctrine/mindset.
1. Ammo: Assuming that we do not change our current interpretations of Geneva, conventional forces (“Big Army”) engaged against Lawful Combatants will remain limited to non-expanding ball ammunition. this being the case, as vital-area shot placment with deep penetration is achieved, the edge will go to the bullet that makes the widest hole with the greatest likelyhood of damaging the most stuff. This alone tends to indicate .45 (or something bigger), vs. .36 (ie: 9mm, .357, .38 family).
If we could use expanding bullets, there could be an argument in favor of smaller calibers, but we can’t use expanding bullets, so forget the exploding watermelon videos – we need the biggest, widest hardball bullet to have the best chance of mangling arteries and let out lots of blood, quickly.
An exception to this would be if we decide on a requirement for body armor /material penetration, then the whole conversation changes.
An additional exception would be a legal / political decision to allow non-Geneva expaning bullets agains unlawful combatants (ie: terrorists, pirates, and other criminals). Unlikely for the conventional forces..
2. Pistols: Too much personal opinion here, but I don’t think there is anything that feels better, in more different sets of hands, and is ergonomically so basically perfect, as an M1911. It is one of the wonders of creation. I have never heard anyone say they enjoy gripping or manipulating an M-9 – it’s just another clumsy piece of Army crap gear which generates no visceral soldierly feeling of confidence or pride. FWIW.
3. Training/mindest/doctrine: A weeklong, SERIOUS, block of instruction, essentially replicating the Gunsite (or similar) curriculum and course of fire, should be the MINIMUM standard for all pistol operators. It should be incorporated into all branch Officer Basic Courses, and refreshed at Captian’s Career Course, and periodically throughout career lifecycle – as a pre-req to promotion! Those not capable dealing with this probably don’t need to hold commissions – it ain’t that hard. But don’t get me started..
Training is a much larger issue in the Army than our current caliber choices. I would definitely like to see us switch over to Glocks or M&P’s however. Glocks specifically due to the ease to work on. Unit armorers could be sent through a Glock armorers course and we could eliminate having to send any of them off for repairs outside unit arms rooms. Accuracy is final.
10x24mm. M41A pulse rifle in the pistol conversion. But the only way to be sure is to nuke em from orbit.
*military historian* let me enlighten this dark recess of the internet all those say its the Geneva convention that stops the use of hollow point is mistaken its the Hague’s convention of 1899 and 1907 it states the following This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using “bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body.” Ratified by all major powers, except the United States. that means if a nation we’re fighting that didnt sign the convention we can use hollow points and soft lead bullets but of course us always being good guys we wont
I think we really have to move on from these century old big-bore pistol rounds to more aero-dynamical necked-down cartridges like 5.7 or 6.5 CBJ.
They are more powerful, fast, light weight. accurate, armor-pierce and low-recoil. So what else can you ask more?
Maybe unless you want natural sub-sonic rounds like .45 ACP.
7.62×25 is what we need
We may as well have Kalahari bushmen discussing which is the better fighter jet.
The Army’s pistol problems have little to do with equipment. It is a cultural problem with three elements: People & Organization; Training; Logistics.
Facts:
(1) The Army takes a tasked based approach to all training. Marksmanship is a SKILL not a TASK. To create skill involves the development of competence; from unconscious incompetence to unconscious competence.
(2) The Army culture believes that NCO’s can train Soldiers to do anything. This is partially true. if we’re discussing tasks. The best military shooters are trained by purpose built coaches, specially developed to impart marksmanship skill into the brains of human beings. Not just any NCO can do this. All too often we fail to appreciate the long term damage caused by poor training, and marksmanship ignorance. In the case of U.S. Army Marksmanship, we haven’t recovered from poor training began in the late 1950’s!
Army People & Organization:
Create an MOS for Marksmanship Skill Trainers; a battery of tests can determine which leaders have the personality to impart skill to other human beings and also the aptitude to understand basic mechanics and mathematics.
Create Force Structure. It has to come from somewhere else, new force structure isn’t coming from Congress any time soon. One TDA Combat Marksmanship Training Unit per every Army Installation. Now, which TDA or MTOE units get cut to provide the manning and resources for Combat Marksmanship?
Army Combat Marksmanship Training.
The U.S. Army has (arguably) the world’s finest small arms training strategy. It is nearly unknown by most officers and NCO’s. For the pistol (at a minimum) a Soldier should have 8 hours PMI (quarterly), 4 hours practice fire, then qualification. The Army Competitive Marksmanship Program is supposed to fill in the gaps and provide more opportunity for Soldiers to develop mastery with their weapons (this program is by and large unused). The Army Small Arms Training Strategy is universally un-followed as it is written. The Army demands Soldiers perform with their weapons while abbreviating the training as if it were a policy to do so, in many cases it is. The Brits’ claim that we are best equipped and worst trained Army in the world isn’t without some merit.
Army Logistics.
Logistics for Army Combat Marksmanship Training is outlined in the STRAC pamphlet (online within TAMIS). In the introductory remarks of STRAC it says something like “these ammunition strategies do not completely support all firing phases in the training strategy.” So, the Army doesn’t provide the resources to completely execute the doctrine, even if a unit were to actually follow the training doctrine. Yet the Army still expects excellence.
Why are we buying new weapons when we don’t buy the resources to properly train with them? I know, I know, the Army turns in millions of rounds of ammunition every year, unfired. That too is a training issue.
When (as we do now) have poor performance from (any given small arms weapon system) our Pistols, we Americans will always look to buy the quick fix – the same is true for most any American endeavor. In my opinion what the decision makers believe is this: “If the performance from the pistol isn’t there, it MUST be the equipment!” That’s wrong.
Fix the culture, fix the organization, fix the instructors, fix the resources, fix the training.
When that’s done, look at tomorrow’s wars. Is the best sidearm a pistol? Perhaps our best sidearm increases dynamic precision, increases lethality, and increases capability. The most Gucci pistols on today’s market aren’t a leap ahead of the M9 9mm in terms of precision, “lethality,” or capability. To me the PDW, probably the HK MP7 in 4.6mm using the bullet (specifically the projectile) design technology of the M855A1 ammunition is the way to go.
PDW’s continue to become more compact, are much more precise, lethal, and capable. But any new weapon is only as good as the trained Soldier operating it. Until the items above are corrected, a new pistol is throwing pearls to swine.
1SG Jose A. Garcia
1SG, that is one of the best analyis of a, perhaps THE, most damaging and limiting cultural/institutional problems afflicting the US Army. Spot on.
Thank you. Only wish I wouldve caught the thread earlier.
I’ve no useful information to share on this subject but the picture of this guy Mudge and the start of ‘Mudge Smash Monday’ haunts my dreams. That is all.
Why not stick with 9mm and just use HP’s? The Hague accordss only apply when all parties involved are signatories and all are abiding. That is not the case in our present and likely intermediate future.