CSA at Jungle Training Center


GEN Ray Odierno, Chief of Staff of the US Army, shared this photo taken during his visit to the 25th ID’s Jungle Training Center. We told you some time ago that woodland BDUs were being used at the school.

44 Responses to “CSA at Jungle Training Center”

  1. Fox says:

    Problem solved. Problem staying solved.

  2. SGT Rock says:

    It would be more awesome if “homeslice” was wearing ALL matching woodland patterned equipment as well. Right now he’ll stick out like a sore thumb in a jungle environment.

    • Eddie says:

      Well, camouflage isn’t really the main reason for reissuing the BDU, while they recognized openly it works much better for the jungle, they are using it for the benefits of the thinner and more breathable fabric, and saving their nice clean ACUs from the lava dirt and mud, because that’s never coming out of those. (heaven knows why with OCP on the way, shouldn’t be so scared) They had a hard enough time finding the last of the Vietnam era jungle boots to give them, I think matching equipment would have been a bigger feat unless you were in a little over a decade ago and still have some. Though, you can find entire unissued sets with FLCs, Rucksacks, and other equipment from the overly plentiful SDS stocks that had also been released to eBay and surplus stores alike. So, yeah, don’t count on the Army to go all out for a jungle warfare course.

      • SSD says:

        You do realize that the HWBDU and the ACU are made from the same craptastic fabric, right?

        • majrod says:

          SSD – no way. I have sets of the original HWBDU w/Elvis collar. Those things are as heavy as denim and as indestructible. I also have issued ACU’s and “light BDU’s”. The fabric weight is different in all three.

          • SSD says:

            Original HWBDUs were 100% ripstop cotton, same as ripstop OG107s. Enhanced HWBDUs are made from 50/50 NYCO, same as ACU.

            • Eddie says:

              Well, I regurgitated a lot of that from reports like this from the Army Times. Though I believe you’re right about the fabric, at least for Non-FR ACUs, which have Rayon blended in them, not an expert on fabrics, but knowing Rayon could retain moisture would it not dry out as quickly as cotton.

              But could they have brought out old sets of original HWBDUs from before the 50/50 switch? They were only introduced in 50/50 in 96′ Stocks could be from older than that if they had Vietnam Era jungles. There could be quite a mix to be honest, with guys bringing their own up.

              “The camouflage pattern on the BDUs works better in the Hawaiian jungle than the Army Combat Uniform, Fuller said, but leaders also didn’t want soldiers ruining their ACUs during training.

              “In that terrain, it’s this red lava dirt, and it stains the uniforms we have to the degree that you can’t get it out,” he said. “Using the woodland BDUs you don’t even notice it.”

              The BDUs also are made from thinner, more breathable material, and they dry out faster, Johnson said.”


              • Luddite4Change says:

                The 100% cotton HWBDU had a 1 inch cuff on the sleave, which was one of the first items to wear through if cleaned/starched. But, they looked geat!

                The 50/50 BDU’s, which I seem to remember came out initially in 94/95 or so, had a two inch sleave cuff like the dude in the photo is wearing.

                They lasted longer, but in my opinion were not as comfortable and just didn’t look as good. In those days of a rapidly reducing Army there were more important things to complain about than the uniform.

                • SSD says:

                  You are correct. The “newer” cuff was from the OG107. They also got rid of the take up tabs on the waist and flared the coat’s hem a bit rather than the boxy design of the HWBDU.

                  • Mike B. says:

                    I was issued heavyweight BDU uniforms in 1982 or 1983. Can’t remember now. However, the original heavyweight BDU’s were not ripstop. They were heavyweight cotton, or something. I didn’t know what ripstop was until I transferred to an SF unit.

                    • Jon, OPT says:

                      Those heavy weight BDUS suck in Hawaii, only ripstop works well there. Anyone wearing the HW or winters on the rock is either a pogue, a cherry, or just an idiot. That’s speaking from 3 years there as an 11B in the 90s.

                      Jon, OPT

                    • Terry B. says:

                      I’m getting a little confused about the terminology here. Some people seem to be using “HW” as “Hot Weather” BDUs and others seem to think “HW” means “Heavy Weight” BDUs.

                      Originally there was only one type of BDUs as Mike B. mentions with the funky Elvis collars.

                      I was in Hawaii when those first BDUs became available in 82 (we had to buy them, they were not issued). We were wearing the green permanent press uniforms also called “pickle suits” at the time.

                      The new BDUs absolutely sucked in hot weather and, believe it or not, they were also intended to be used even in Panama. It was typical Army “one size fits all” fielding.

                      The initial issue BDUs also shrank like crazy and turned blue after only a couple of washings. The Army solution to those problems was to tell us to wash the uniforms in cold water only.

                      Despite a lot of complaints from soldiers the Army went ahead full speed with the plan. In fact, nothing was done about it until after Grenada in October 83.

                      I was in the 82nd by then and luckily those of us who had them were still allowed to wear the Division issued ERDL jungles.

                      But Division had stopped issuing the jungles in the summer of 83 and all the cherries had received the BDUs in their clothing bags anyway.

                      Long story short, the press interviewed a lot of folks in BDUs in Grenada and got an earful about how the new uniforms sucked.

                      And it embarrassed the Army enough to rather hastily develop what became known as the “hot weather” or lightweight BDU.

                      The original BDU with the heavier material then became known as the “winter weight” BDU and for some years after soldiers got two sets of each in basic.

                      That’s the way I remember it.


                    • SSD says:

                      HW is hot weather and EHW is Enhanced hot weather. The standard BDU was a temperate uniform but it never had a special designation.

                    • Terry B. says:

                      I just remembered; the authorization to wear OG 107 jungle fatigues as a duty uniform (and make them available in Clothing Sales for individual purchase) was the Army’s “interim fix” until the lightweight BDUs could be produced and fielded.

                    • SSD says:

                      Exactly. What was it? Like around $8 a set?

                    • Terry B. says:


                      You are right, it was called “temperate”. I couldn’t remember the term.

                      Yes, the OG 107s were already bought and paid for by the Army so when they released the stocks they were about $8 a set.

                      I don’t remember how long the OG jungles were originally supposed to be authorized.

                      But they were so popular (and cheap) that the Army kept extending their authorization until they were all gone.

                      And that was well after the HW BDU became available.

                      Damn, I loved the cut of that uniform.

                      Sometimes I have to laugh at some of the younger folks that wax nostalgic about how great the BDU was.

                      They mostly had experienced the Enhanced HW “GEN 3″ version (2” cuff, waist tabs removed, etc).

                      The fact is the roll out of the BDU was an abortion and they were not popular at all in those early years.


                    • Terry B. says:

                      One more bit of trivia for what it is worth. As the supplies of ERDL jungles had dried up conventional Airborne units like the 82nd and the 509th in Italy had to stop issuing them.

                      Those units were going to transition to the BDU just like the rest of the Army. Which was not a popular decision.

                      The Airborne had just gotten the maroon berets back from the Army and had enjoyed being the only conventional troops in camouflage.

                      However, the SOF community had no interest in getting into the same uniform as the rest of the Army and did everything they could to delay transitioning into the BDU.

                      The SF Groups began issuing OG 107s as their ERDL stocks dried up. But those that still had ERDLs could continue to wear them.

                      And (being a little more concerned about uniformity than their SF brothers) the two Ranger Bns put away their ERDLs and transitioned en masse to OG 107s.

                      That is why you see the Rangers already in OGs in Grenada.


      • straps says:

        If OCP was “on the way” GEN Odierno would have been briefed properly:

        He has not, so it is not. It brings me no joy to say this.

    • I agree. We made that an option back in NOV. 😉

  3. Savannah Boar Hunter says:

    What is that novel pattern he is wearing? That looks pretty slick, the Army should do some testing and think about adopting it.

  4. Adam says:

    After my first deployment in 2004, I had a woodland PC, DCU grenadier load out, with ACU’s. We all had mismatched patterns and were the funkiest lookin’ bunch. That’s just SNAFU shit in the Army.

    • Eddie says:

      Get ready for OCP transition photos this year, gonna be OEF 2010 all over again. 😛

      • majrod says:

        This is not new. I remember wearing “green” OG107’s in ’86 with “heavy” BDU caps. The ones with earmuffs you could never use.

        BTW, back then there wasn’t a lot of love for the BDU’s even when the lightweights came out. There were rampant complaints about BDU’s falling apart, exorbitant cost, buttons breaking or making holes in the pocket flaps when they were cleaned, sleeves too tight when you rolled them up etc.

        The lesson is as much as the Army screws up Joe loves to complain.

  5. Wake27 says:

    See it all the time here. Even the support guys in their FSCs. It is only the tops and bottoms though, sometimes boots. They must’ve run out of PCs.

    • Wake27 says:

      Big Army also nixed the Jungle tab within the division, at least for now.

      • Hodge175 says:

        Good, The ARMY does not need a Tab for every course you attend in the military…if you want to be Special…then do something Special.

        • Erik says:

          It’s just paying homage to the old Jungle Expert patch that was awarded down in Panama and worn locally in the units.

          Local uniform items used to be a big thing back in the day, I suspect without two wars to focus on fighting, those types of things will slowly make their way back into Army culture.

          • jose says:

            I was down in Panama 91-93, we didn’t wear them, I think the guys before Just Cause had the Patch but not the tab. None of them wore it if they did. Plus it was stupid for someone that humped the damn jungle for two years, not being authorized to get it unless they went thru JOTC. I guess, getting attacked by Killer bees, pissed/crapped on by the monkeys, walking at night, dealing with all the wonderful critteIrs and the jungle didn’t make you worthy enough to get it..

            I will say this we did get an Peruvian attachments during one field problem, their had what looked like French Woodland Pattern uniforms on, that have big patches of same colors of BDUs, they stood out..

  6. Steve says:

    That body armor should generate an awesome case of prickly heat.

    • straps says:

      150-weight Merino t-shirt will fix that right up. I wore one under my ‘bat shirt for a JRTC rotation and had no issues.

  7. NP says:

    Anyone else notice the dude is rocking a AN/PSQ-20 (SENVG)?

  8. jose says:

    So how thick is the jungle in Hawaii? We didn’t even bother to mess with NODs in Panama because you could barely see your hand in front of you with PVS7s.

    So how are the new Jungle Boots holding up?

    • SGT Rock says:

      I attended the JOTC course @ FT Sherman in the early 90’s and I also lived in Hawaii for 5 years. The jungle in Hawaii can get pretty thick in some places, and is a different creature than Panama. Hawaii has mountains and valleys while Panama is generally flat for the most part.

      • jose says:

        I guess you can say it’s flat, but there’s parts where it’s straight up and down and worse when it’s raining season.. If you went to JOTC between 91-93, I probably was part of the unit doing the OPFOR.

    • Hodge175 says:

      True story, first time in Panama, I couldn’t believe how dark the jungle would get. I think those OTB Jungle lites had promise. To bad they are no longer made.

    • Wake27 says:

      No experience with Panama, but Hawaii has some really thick parts. I was pretty much crawling on top of grass that was a solid foot or two off of the ground which was weird.

    • Jon, OPT says:

      Single canopy in the Oahu training areas. The terrain sucks more than the foliage.

      Jon, OPT

  9. bulldog76 says:

    i wonder if they’re using the old jungle boots or the new ones…

    • SSD says:

      They issued everything that was available through DSCP. Now, there’s a SEP program for a new boot.

  10. SSD says:

    The temperate BDU, which was initially issued starting in 1982, was made from a 7 oz 50/50 NYCO Twill.

    The ERDL jungle uniform was made from a Cotton Ripstop Poplin in the range of 5.7 – 6.7 oz per yard. The Ripstop variant of the OG107 jungle fatigue was made from the same fabric except that it was not printed.

    Prior to this, there were jungle fatigues made from 6.5 ounce Oxford weave NYCO fabric but right now I don’t know the percentages of the materials in the weave.

  11. Darrel says:

    Buy a set of woodlands and sit on them for a while.

    Of course, Woodland MARPAT is superior, but not everyone has the “right” to wear those, however stupid that sounds.