Exciting news from the Marines. They are moving forward on tropical clothing and footwear.
Marine Corps Systems Command (MARCORSYSCOM) Product Manager Infantry Combat Equipment (PdM-ICE) is conducting market research to identify tropical uniform fabrics, uniform designs, and boots that provide durability and protection, improved moisture management, and reduced dry time in a tropical environment. The tropical combat uniform includes a blouse, trouser, and boot. PdM ICE plans to conduct a user evaluation on the most promising materials and end items.
This Sources Sought effort requests industry to submit fabrics or uniform prototypes that are suitable for a tropical environment. Interestingly, PdM ICE intends to use a Government-owned design for the tropical uniform but they’re willing to consider commerial items as an alternative to the Government-owned designs. Lots of layers of fabric on those Marine field uniforms (MCCUU and EFRCE). Something stripped down would be nice.
In addition to tropical uniforms, the Marines want a new boot although I can’t for the life of me understand how a Marine Jungle Boot might be different than an Army or a SOF Jungle Boot. I certainly hope they aren’t pining for a tropical variant of the RAT boot.
The primary consideration in development of a new tropical boot will be improved performance in a tropical environment. The new tropical boot shall have similar qualities to the Marine Corps Combat Boot requirements. The boot must operate within a tropical environment, with performance based upon boot durability. Submissions shall incorporate innovative designs which utilize fabric and synthetic leathers to increase dry out time, while reducing weight and moisture retention caused by natural leather. Additionally, the tropical boot must be lighter weight and faster drying when compared to the current combat boot. The outsole must allow for easy removal of mud, debris, and foreign substances. The Marine Corps tropical boot can vary in height as long as the boot provides ankle support to the wearer.
Seeing this chart, I’d say they’re not exactly setting the bar very high here, considering the Army recently relearned quite a bit about they had forgotten about Jungle Boots. Soles almost seem as an afterthought and no mention of a plate to protect the foot from booby traps.
This is the most interesting part of the effort. Maybe something like the Gore Pyrad will work but anything that inhibits breathability, even a little bit, in the jungle is a recipe for disaster. Everytime I read FR and armor requirements for jungle operations and wonder who wrote them. It’s surely not anyone who has ever spent anytime in a jungle environment.
PdM-ICE is conducting market research to determine if the current Marine Corps Combat Utility Uniform (MCCUU) could be flame resistant (FR) treated. Treatment should be low cost, and could be applied during fabric manufacture, as a post treatment, or in garment form. Treatment shall not alter appearance, comfort, or durability properties. The treatment must meet the vertical flame performance…
Fortunately, there will also be an Industry Day, during Outdoor Retailer Winter Market from 7-10 January 2016 in Salt Lake City, Utah, where the Government plans to conduct one-on-one meetings with industry. Maybe the Marines will be in recieve mode while vendors procide feedback on work they’ve already done, especially regarding boots.
Interested parties need to review the announcement on www.FBO.gov for all of the particulars.
CRYE MC-Tropic has to be in the running…….great pattern!!
They don’t want a new camo pattern, just clothing.
Something tells me the pattern will have to be digi-pixelated to align with the current two digi-camo MARPAT patterns, desert and woodland. This fact alone could leave Crye’s Multicam Tropic out of the race.
As for the fabric, I agree that something more streamlined and lighter weight would be a welcome addition. Both MCCUU and FROG uniform pieces are made of heavier weight NyCo and FR-Rayon twill not really suitable for tropical/jungle environments.
One more time. There is not going to be a new pattern.
What defines “tropical?” I’ve been in Midwestern “woodlands” that were in regrowth with vines, ivy and 100% humidity/100f temps. And I’ve frozen my ass off in some classic “tropics” in Brazil.
True. Although something tells me they’ll do a full circle back to an omni-present Summer-weight NyCo ripstop.
It’s hard to beat the 50/50 NyCo ripstop for a durable light-weight uniforms.
Except when that wet 50% of cotton is sticking to every single area of your body. NyCo is a fabric best kept dry.
Yeah true, the same could be said for a Rayon-mix as currently used in Defender M FR fabrics.
I guess it’s a matter of balance. Predominant percentage of non-natural materials in a garment like Nylon or Poly aren’t exactly good option, either.
The defense industry and the “military” fabrics are for the most part seriously lacking in features compared to “civilian” options. Sure you might need FR (in the jungle, really?), but that can be applied to almost any material these days.
Synthetics can be given almost any properties you’d like, including improving handfeel. I don’t see how the cotton is supposed to improve the handfeel (that’s comfort against the skin) of the uniform when it’s going to be wet when used in the environment it’s designed for. It’s IMO full retard.
The price of the fabrics will play good part in the selection criteria too.
Nylon is great, but more expensive than cotton. Polyester is cheap but not an option for Mil-spec garments.
I really believe it would come down to a balance of durability, breathability, moisture retention and flame retardant properties.
A new Mil fabric in Nylon, Cotton & Rayon/Para-aramid mix, maybe? A love child of NyCo/Defender M/Nomex threesome 🙂
Here is why polyester is a good choice:
High strength, high abrasion resistance, poor absorption, it’s very resilient, good resistance to UW and the fact that you can give it additional properties including finishes (to dull it, FR, anti microbial etc. etc.) and it’s one of the lowest priced fabrics ($2-3/yard in Asia on average).
Nylon is about the same except for poor UW resistance.
Rayon is complete shit. I’d rather go with cotton for tons of reasons.
If this is for a jungle environment, then the fabric needs to be optimal for a fucking jungle environment. Durability in jungles according to my research (I’m finishing up a project on tropical expedition pants) is that nothing really lasts long. MIL use would be even shorter. So the 3-4 civie months might be 1-2 months for synthetics, and 1-2 weeks for naturals instead of 2-4 weeks.
Fabric design in form of an actual real ripstop (let’s say 3x or 4x the denier instead of double) will make it last a bit longer. Combine that with proper abrasion pad placement (grab say 50x jungle-worn uniforms and analyze the wear patterns) and you might be good to go.
Wasting energy by carrying around a bunch of water in your clothing sounds like a great idea to combine with a full sized armor with all the bells and whistles.
Someone (not you, but the people who set the requirements) need to get real.
this ^
Hmm, second part maybe. First part about Polyester, nope, sorry.
The polyester part is facts. You might not like it as an option, but there are only facts in that part…
Hmm, no, not really. Polyester or polyester mix may be good for outdoor, expedition and airsofters attire, but certainly not for the military. There’s myriad of the poly and poly-cotton mixes used currently like 60/40 CoPo, 65/35 PoCo ripstop etc.
It had been discounted as a mil-spec material long ago when during testing showed two issues – less resistance to wear and tear than Nylon and less fire retardant when compared to pretty much all materials tested then – cotton, Nylon, Rayon, Aramid etc.
So no, unless someone comes up with an new ‘version’ of Polyester material, we won’t be seeing it any time soon in a military assemble.
AMEN, thank you!
Wearing Polyester in the field FUCKING SUCKS!
People need to stop looking at paper and start walking in the woods, preferably the jungle in this case, and this will make sense.
I will backpack all day with synthetics on, but for rucking and patrolling, that is completely different.
There’s a reason so many people love 100% ripstop cotton and the most loved Jungle uniform ever was made from it… it works, it works well, and it is more durable than most people think it is, reinforce the outside with some 500D or lighter (like replace BDU knees and seat with nylon), change cut angles for better body articulation and you have a winner.
There’s an old saying, a camel is a horse designed by a committee; let the Marines go out and test drive horses, good ideas with great intentions based on paper facts without real world testing will lead to an overpriced camel.
I’m just glad they finally realized their uniform is too thick and hot in the jungle, I’ve worn it out there as part of a ghillie, and that shit is hot hot hot.
So they’re going with a new pattern? haha, Couldn’t resist.
Always did like the cut on the MCCUU but you’re definitely right about it having a lot of fabric. Friend gave me one years ago and it feels like a Flannel compared to the old Vietnam era Jungle jackets.
We were already promised a tropical/hot weather/whatever RAT boot. Haven’t seen it yet. The difference is that it would meet USMC uniform specifications and be intended to last longer.
The construction for that boot is from the 1800s.
Sure. Not saying the RAT is the best choice, only that a Marine Corps sourced boot would have longevity higher up on the list of priorities than an Army or SOCOM boot.
Strange.
When the Army announces a new program there are a litany of comments about leveraging other services work or looking at what SOCOM or Army Special Forces have done in the area.
There’s also a good batch of comments about how the Army is screwing the pooch and how there are so many adequate or even great solutions out there. (I specifically remember a number of comments about how good old school jungle boots and fatigues were.)
None of that here. Why? Are the Marines infallible? (For some closed minded types that’s a rhetorical question.)
Hey, I hope the Marines find the BEST solutions (even better than the Army). I just hope they don’t copyright it and block other services from using them. I find it curious and somewhat humorous that there’s very little mention (SSD kind of mentioned boots) of working with other services and leveraging experiences to find better and maybe cheaper solutions.
USMC of old used to be content with “what’s already out there”, literally. Jungle fatigues and M65s were just fine, so were the omnipresent BDUs few of them still wear.
Sometime in early 2000’s they decided it would be a good idea to update the BDU design, cut and functionality and they came with MCCUU, which while loved by many USMC members and more functional than the BDU, is really nothing spectacular. Almost identical FROG followed.
These days it’s all about ‘technical’ uniform. Something like a NWU could well be the next step for the Corp too, as it’s arguably better fitting option for tropical and humid environments and knowing one or two current serving USMC members they both tell me they’d rather wear NWU in the ME theater than the heavy Rayon twill FROGs.
Oh and there’s that old one – Marine Corp members uniforms should be distinguishable from the Army’s et al.
Let’s see what new materials and designs they’ll come up with this time around.
“USMC of old used to be content with “what’s already out there”,
That isn’t entirely accurate. Since WWI Marine combat uniforms have differed from other services to some degree. Sometimes in very significant ways.
Some examples. WWI differences were largely cosmetic. WWII Marine camo uniforms were USMC unique but using an Army pattern. WWII green fatigues were also different. (Sometimes Marines wore Army uniforms when supply system failed.) Korea, different overgear, helmet covers and fatigues. Your comment is very valid for Vietnam though.
No service should have to “be satisfied” with what’s out there if they can improve upon what’s being fielded. My point is expecting services to work together leveraging the good stuff and the humorous lack of criticism when the Corps starts a program other components have been working on.
SOCOM already selected a jungle fabric. It is NOT FR. The Army and Marines still haven’t.
No because that would actualy make sense, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel.
And you’re darned right the marines are infallable. How dare the army ask to use their beloved MARPAT uniform for example? /s/
Historically, the USMC is far better at acquisitions than the Army, at least in the handful of programs I’ve worked with both.
That’s because demand is (for the last decade +) bottom driven, with some exceptions, and the Marines tend to assign testing and listen to results. Much like the other parts of the DoN like the SEALs etc.
The Army tends to plan in a vacuum and then dump the bags of shit on the force to test “here’s 5 shitty options, tell us which you want”.
Jon – the Army doesn’t assign testing? Why are the Rangers given gear (by the Army e.g. NETT Warrior) on a test basis? Why was the 101st given XM25’s to kick the tires on before they went back for minor tweaking and to fight for funding?
But just like my comment to Brett, how does that make a difference in this case? When the Army announced an initiative to develop a jungle boot or jungle uniform (way before prototypes which is where we are here in this example) there was a flurry of comments here on SSD about our prior experience with OG107s and jungle boots. (Valid observations I think). There were also the comments about waste and not looking to SOCOM. Here the Marines are doing the SAME thing and the commentary is strikingly different.
THAT’s my point. No commentary about the USMC’s substantial experience with OG107 and jungle boots? No commentary about leveraging other branch’s research? Why?
No branch is infallible. M4 anyone?
Balais – thanks for making my point.
I’m speaking in generalizations from a uniform standpoint. This discussion is about uniforms isn’t it?
I give you horrible Army Uniform decision case in point, top driven: the ACU in UCP, I rest my case. 🙂
If you think I’m carrying the torch for the Army you are completely missing my point, both systems suck, some just suck a lot more.
Well SSD is a gear site and my point was more expansive than just uniforms but we can be uniform specific if you want.
Your case rests on a sample size of one from which your generalizations depend, the incredibly terrible ACU fielding in UCP. Ok, ACU/UCP was admittedly horrible (though the uniform cut itself was an advance over BDUs). Let’s see how your generalizations compare against other uniform items. In the area of boots, t-shirts, combat shirts, flame retardant fabric fielding, snivel gear, helmets and suspension systems the Army has done a pretty good job.
So coming back to my core point. It’s amazing that one branch get a pass while another gets a colonoscopy over the same issue? I mean the discussion was about jungle kit right?
Once again, you seem to think I have chosen sides here, not sure why that is, but I HAVEN’T. Also, this thread is about uniforms, sure SSD is a gear site, I’m glad you pointed that out, but I’m talking about uniforms.
I cannot control reactions on SSD, you’re on your own there bud, don’t ask me to explain it. Most comments on here indicate very few people read the actual article and just jumped on the impulsive thought bandwagon. Your guess is as good as mine.
Let’s talk Army uniform procurement…
ACU, the cut was actually bottom driven, they got it almost right, almost, good enough for gubmint work, the pattern was a travesty, at the least embarassing, and possibly cost some guys their lives. There was testing and fielding of multiple patterns to units in Fort Lewis, hence my statement, hands us 5 solutions that all suck, and has us choose. Then, what got chosen? The worst one.
Boots, boot procurement over the last 15 years for the Army really hasn’t changed, boot authorization has. We still get issued basically the same stuff from back in 2000 just in a different color. Rockies/Danners for cold WX, and jungle boots for warm. Mickey Mouse for extreme cold wx. RFI has given out some boots as well that were almost sporty, don’t expect me to talk really highly of them, I broke my foot in one type and found the other type over built for my taste.
T-Shirts, yup, still a DSPC T-Shirt, amazing! Though one RFI I received actually issued synthetic shirts that if they caught fire would shrink wrap a fucking torso in seconds, great job Army!
Combat Shirts, great recent advent of the current conflicts, actually a requirement that came out of wearing armor, we were building our own in SF for years before Crye or the Army put BDU sleeves on a t-shirt.
FR, great, we started using vehicles a lot, this was a natural progression, also a reaction to the outcome of non-standard undershirts (mostly UA) sticking like glue to burn victims. Great, now we all have overpriced stuffy uniforms that cost far more than just using cotton with a good replacement plan. FR outerwear is pretty nice, I’ll give it that.
Snivel gear, huge advances, someone grew a brain and asked the outdoor world how to bundle up, now we have a 7 layer system, that’s progress that’s existed and we threw away an old wheel for one that was rounder and already available, we didn’t invent that. We can though thank CAG for that, they were the guys who reached out. In fact, the good advances in uniforms are all rooted from one of two organizations, both are SOF.
Helmets, PASGT, MICH, ACH and now Ops-Core… Great advances. Speaking of the jungle, wait till some guy wears his widgetted out helmet in that shit, that’s gonna be a mess, but that’s another story.
SO, back to my point, from what I’ve seen, and I’m only one dude, and this is my subjective viewpoint, this is not me spouting off incorrect objective statements like they are doctrinal fact… I have observed that the Marines appear to have a better process for this, which is not without its own SNAFUs, like, making all equipment in one color, which sort of works, but apparently not everyone agrees.
Maybe it’s from watching years of AFN on an island occupied mostly by Marines, while in a SF unit that was the last to get issued anything coming from USASFC.
I’m only one man, not the all omniscient god of gear.
SO the Marines have this place on Okinawa called the NTA, it’s hot as shit, in the subtropics, and perfect for torture testing just about anything tropic reated. They also have a unit there (SOTG) that specifically tests shit and develops training, not a unit handed gear as a tasking and asked for an opinion. I’m thinking they will figure this out soon enough. The Army lacks a proponent unit like SOTG, of which the Corps has one at just about every major command, I could be incorrect on that, google it. That unit, in my opinion is worth it’s weight on gold. The closest thing I can think of the Army having to this is the divisional or base training units like Hawaii’s old LITC, Bragg’s unit that runs pre-Ranger etc. But, SOTG has a wider scope. Just food for thought, is that what makes the difference? Maybe. Most Army stuff for combat arms tends to trickle down from SOF, as it should.
That’s why I see the USMC as being more bottom driven, while what Natick, or PEO (why the fuck the Army has two of these and can’t combine them is a whole other issue) pushes on the force is usually not based on needs of the force, but what ends up usually being the outcome of needs determined in some quasi-random fashion. I will never be able to figure it out, and honestly don’t care that much. Suffice to say some of the shit they have dropped on us over the years has just led guys to scratch their heads and ask, why this, why now, and why the fuck not bullets instead?
My solution, since no one is asking, centralize testing for all services at one Natick/PEO/Marine guys who develop stuff/Air Force version… assign units to use their stuff as part of red cycle, and work with them to develop solutions. Just food for thought.
When it comes to weapons, vehicles, etc… that’s whole different discussion, I have a weekend to chill, I’ll take a day to type what each service is categorically doing wrong or right on that some other day.
No I don’t think you have chosen sides but you may have a preference for the Marine method because that’s what you’ve seen/have experience with. I think all organizations screw the pooch on occasion and sometimes look for unique solutions just for the sake of being unique. There’s also the very valid concern of too many cooks spoil the batter and take too long to cook.
You don’t have to have an answer on why there’s a lack of questioning or advice here. They were rhetorical questions. Just hoping you recognize the obvious trend.
Good info there on all the items. I’m sure there are readers that didn’t know it. All in all it does make my case that the Army has developed and fielded some worthy uniform items.
SOTG sounds like a great organization. Army units selected to test gear are not just sent off on their own. They often have reps from acquisition along for the ride gathering input and feedback. That actually often goes back to the schoolhouse where a team of active uniformed types and government employees with a lot of institutional experience and decades of service writing the training POI’s.
Centralized testing is a good idea as long as things don’t get too bureaucratic which they eventually will. It happens to every organization over time.
You provide fascinating perspective and input. Weapons/vehicles is a long and complex subject. Personally I have the most curiosity over adoption of the M27 which seems to disregard decades of the squad’s light machine gun lessons.
M27, my opinion is the Corps should have gone with an updated domestically made Ultimax (Charter Arms, Singapore), they were testing it and decided against it. I’ve been a fan of that gun since the 80’s, but I’m a sucker for a drum mag (mostly for aesthetic reasons), and I’ve fired one and it is an incredible weapon, it handles recoil like a dream, and fires from a closed bolt. Hopefully their overall decision on the M27 doesn’t become a fatal blunder, it seems a step back to when the Automatic Rifleman carried an M16 with a bipod, rather than a beltfed weapon that can fire a Rifleman’s mags in a pinch (a system that wasn’t 100% reliable on the M249, but was better than nothing). Time will tell on that one.
True, most newly fielded or tested equipment NOW has NET (New Equipment Training) attached, or contracted evaluating personnel, or even green suiters attached, but that’s not always been the case. Uniforms seem to do everything right, and then some General with a hardon for SCi-Fi decides to go with UCP, or implement black berets. To do a process correctly requires informed decisions, not impulsive last minute decisions that defy all test results. I think that horse has been beat up, shot, then nuked from orbit enough though, I’m just glad to see it finally changed, at great cost though.
SSD: The trend is obvious, possibly the bias is based on there being more Army experienced readers who understand the Army system and have experiential based bitching. I’ve seen both, but being Army and knowing how little Marines like to air their dirty laundry, it makes sense, I’ve only seen what Marines have exhibited in behavior or through brief conversations with their guys from SOTG, Camp Hansen Range Control on Okinawa, and the occasional conversation at a bar or get together. Add in the USMC propaganda machine (AFN and Stars and Stripes) press releases) in the PACOM AOR and it might be a media influenced bias as well.
Enjoy your weekend!
Brett – The Marines have their fare share of acquisition snafus.
Specific to this item the Corps is replicating work being done by other branches without all the chiding the Army gets. So one branch gets to reinvent the wheel and another doesn’t?
My point is the hypocrisy, double standard, hypocrisy or dare I say it, “fear to criticize”.
You have to give it to them though, compared to 20 years ago, the USMC has changed their procurement process for the better. No system is perfect, and as the USMC they deal with a double bureaucracy; but their gear has vastly improved, of course with SNAFUs, over what they once had. They are by no means like SOCOM, but I would say they had a decade where they didn’t make idiotic blunders like the ACU, black beret, etc that the Army put it’s Soldiers through.
The Marines are great about deciding what they want and buying it. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best thing, but a decision is made and they buy it quickly.
SSD – Short, on point. Concur.
Jon – History is a lot longer than a decade and is especially pertinent to my original observation.
A comparison of all the “advice” comments when the Army jungle gear stories ran (much talking about gear created FIVE DECADES ago) and the lack of them here shows a stark difference.
It doesn’t end there. Look at the MHS vs. M27, XM25 vs. M32, ammo etc. stories. The trend isn’t a one of.
Just a question for the author. Why would it be common sense to NOT require FR for a jungle uniform? I understand weight concerns, but it is not cool (no pun intended) to have your own uniform catch fire and melt to your skin, be it due to explosives, hot weapons, fuel, machinery, cooking, etc. I understand the sentiment to doff armor in the jungle to increase manuever capabilities and reduce load on the individual Marine, but that should be left to the unit level to weigh the enemy risk when making that decision.
Just like the environments being vastly different, the threats become different. You won’t maneuver the same.
Yeah, let’s have a giant discussion about the best jungle textiles available. Smart!
Never mind that the Marines will probably be wearing a huge ballistic vest, helmet, groin pro, nape protector, goggles, etc…
It’s all about keeping your shins and forearms cool when it’s 118 degrees and 98% humidity…
“Yeah, let’s have a giant discussion about the best jungle textiles available. Smart!”
Why such a rash comment? What would you like to discuss about in this thread then? Or are you one of those who would rather have comment-less threads.
Discussions and opinions are always welcome in my opinion. If you don’t like them don’t read them or provide your own thoughts or responses instead.
I don’t have any issues with the comments section at all, Gary. If you continued to read what I wrote, I’m pointing out that the plan (albeit potentially a step in the right direction) is full of flawed logic. Meaning, it doesn’t matter much what materials one selects for a jungle uniform when one covers their core with cumbersome, non-breathable materials in the jungle. Your extremities do need cooling, but your core (if covered by a large, clunky vest) and head (if covered by a helmet and Peltors and eye pro) and groin (if wearing issued groin protection) are key areas to ventilate. If the Marines have no plan to make the ballistic protection more suitable for the jungle, then having a discussion about materials is kind of silly. Do your shins and forearms really breathe that much? Also, since it pretty much rains every single day in the jungle, how much additional weight is a Marine carrying with soaking wet gear? Is there a plan to replace load carriage and other issued gear with something more suitable or is their plan to get some new boots and uniform and call it a day? Too many DOD programs don’t look at the problem as a whole. They look at one small, insignificant part of the problem.
Selecting first the right type of uniform including the fabric it’s made off is important first step. The brief SSD posted above doesn’t talk about addressing the problem as a whole – just the appropriate uniform selection, first.
The other aspects of overall jungle/tropical operational gear may or may not be addressed in the future by the DoD. We don’t know that yet. Sure, everyone would like to see them re-assessing the whole kit, but as you know that’s not always easy or easily achievable.
sooo 100% cotton uniforms for a jungle environment may be no …ok ill be over the corner…..
I highly doubt SOF, Army and the Marines have requirements/goals that are so different from each other. Perhaps they could work together…..
They tried before…and didn’t get far.
I totally agree and that was my first thought when I saw this article. All 3 could work together on the fabric which will then be printed and cut to each branches specs.
See JCP.
JCP only involved SOCOM and the Army. It died when the proponent (SOCOM) cut the procurement to 50k causing the Army to drop out since it wouldn’t satisfy its requirement.
Maybe you mean the MHS (Army, USAF, USMC)?
So let me ask you what was wrong with the Old Jungle Fatigues? The Cut is similar to what they got now in the Shirt, I bought one for when I played opfor down in JOTC. It was light weight, dried better than my BDU shirt.
Precisely
The thing that I don’t get is that we spent from the mid 50s to the 70s in the jungle and even had Vietnam vets rotating thru JOTC in Panama. The Jungle hasn’t changed from WWII during Merrill Maruaders time in Burma, Vietnam, and Just Cause, so why try to change what worked. I can understand new materials, but Jungle is Jungle.. Stop trying to change what worked, and worked well.. But then again, I’m I have no dog in the fight, just wished the powers that be would stop trying come up with shit..
stop making sense the military doesnt like that !
The interesting part here is function coming before form… variable height (6-9″) while maintaining ankle stability… Granted this doesn’t seem intended for garrison wear, much like the Army’s Mountain Combat Boot for OEF, but hopefully prioritizing function over arbitrary things like 8″ height continues to be a trend.
Looks like more heavy garbage from Danner is on the way… Remember that Danner ‘Mountain Boot’ a few years back? Bollocks. Give em’ Merrels and call it a day!
I wonder if they’d be open to a uniform that uses the vent that’s common in the fishing shirts you see in sporting goods stores. The vent does a great job of letting out heat and moisture.
Vertx has those, quite well done if I may say so, too. But as the company they’re hardly on a Gov’t/Mil contractor selection radar.
Besides the less durable fabric, does woodland FROG not cut it as a jungle uniform, or at least be an interim solution? The Marine Corps sent me to nothing but desert AOs so I got no experience with any jungle.
Is it possible to design MCCUUs that are durable yet moisture wicking, lighter and FR like FROG? My only complaint about my cammies are that they’re heavy, take forever to dry and get very hot. Otherwise excellent utility uniform. I was lucky to be able to wear FROG and the SPC my entire 3rd deployment in that shithole that is Helmand Province and what a huge difference. Wearing regular cammies and that POS MTV in Iraq during the summer months was absolutely miserable.
Are any of the Army approved COTS boots like the Rocky S2V good for jungle AOs?
Hopefully the Marine Corps finally says no more to the IMTV and use PCs exclusively. Why do we still bother with bulky OTVs that provide marginally more IIIa coverage at the expense of weight, bulk and heat?
I talked to a Marine (who had deployed to Cambodia) during my research, here is a little quote from it:
Me: do you feel like it [the FROG uniform] works ok in hot and humid environments?
Marine: No it was terrible. Heat rash and what not. A lot of the times we would go shirtless if we could get away with it.
Sample of one, but it sounds like a no.
FR fabrics tend not to breathe, non-breathing fabrics in humidity tend to cause all sorts of issues.
At this point, I’m down with letting the guys who insist on FR uniforms in the jungle wear them. Of course, it will be hard to medevac them for heat casualty thanks to the canopy, but hey, they’ll be a-ok just in case there’s an IED in the jungle, which would be random as hell if they are staying off of the trails and it actually goes off considering the humidity and rot that sets in as soon as its emplaced.
SSD – true. People don’t seem to get a primary driver for FR was being in close proximity to flammables like fuel in a vehicle. Not many vehicles in the jungle.
It never ceases to amaze me how so many fall for the age old mistake of planning to fight the next war like the last one.
Like facing insurgents with a force structure designed to engage in large scale conventional wars of movement? Next thing you know you have cannon-cockers kicking doors.