According the 2nd Marine Division Gunner, CW5 Christian Wade, they are working on an Urgent Operational Needs Statement for Glock 19Ms to outfit Afghanistan-bound members of the unit.
Gunner Wade posted this image to Facebook on Friday night. Please ignore that the image is of a G17M. Gunner Wade is fully aware.
Few other details are available, such as the basis of issue. However, Gunner Wade has stated that he wants them in Marines’ hands quickly, so they can conduct pre-deployment training with them.
While the Glock 19M is a great sidearm, you have to wonder why M9 pistols won’t work. We know from his past comments that he prefers a compact sidearm, but with deployed Marines in uniform and full Deuce gear, the advantage of the smaller frame is negligible.
Perhaps weight is a concern. But as of right now, few Marines outside of MARSOC carry pistols. If weight is the driving factor, adding a pistol to the load is something that needs to be looked at very critically.
Ironically, Marine tables of organization were changed several years ago to eliminate most of the M9 pistols when the M4 Carbine was fielded as a replacement of the M16A4.
Considering all of those factors, the move isn’t without precedent. The Marine Corps has fielded Glocks. Initially, it was MARSOC, which adopted G19s using MFP-11 funds. While technically not a Marine Corps fielding per se, those are Marines using them. Rumors have floated around in the past that the Corps was considering purchasing off of the USSOCOM contract.
Additionally, the Marine Corps very recently purchased a small quantity of Glock 19Ms off of the FBI contract. Those were for use by members of the Marine Corps’ Criminal Investigation Division. CID has a close relationship with the FBI due to the location of several of the federal agency’s elements on Quantico, so adoption of the FBI’s sidearm isn’t that surprising.
It will be interesting to see how the Marine Corps responds to this UONS.
Gotta wonder if this is going to be just like MARPAT and spark a “pistol” version of that fiasco. Army gets the Sig, Marines want the G19, Navy wants something else, AF, etc…etc…
We’re kind of already there. There are a lot of provisioned pistols in DoD’s inventory.
“We’re not figuring out the next lunar landing. This is a pistol!”-Army CoS Gen. Milley
We solve this problem by simply having an APEL eye-pro equivalent for sidearms. Most service pistols today are excellent, reliable and plenty accurate. So why not have a handful of different 9mm pistols that a soldier, sailor, airman or marine that are “approved” purchase and carry on them. To be fair tons of police agencies and sheriff departments do the same thing. This would be a HUGE win for service members and cost whatever service implements this ZERO DOLLARS. Who says success has to be expensive?
“but with deployed Marines in uniform and full Deuce gear, the advantage of the smaller frame is negligible.
Perhaps weight is a concern”
SSD, your commentaries are so dialed in as a rule that I almost never feel the urge to comment but this one above got the best of me. Reducing the weight our warriors carry into battle is a deep passion of mine having seen too many young men (20’s and 30’s) debilitated by doing the job chronically overloaded. Our nation pays a terrible price for this and will for decades to come in meds, joint replacements, disability payments. Everyone in Industry, DoD and Congress needs to get one thing straight: WEIGHT IS ALWAYS A CONCERN! We must be relentless in this. Even if the M9 is only occasionally used it is the heavier option and should be replaced. Gunner Wade gets it!
Blue Force Gear developed the lightest LCS by taking every “insignificant” weight savings in a gear build (radius selection on pouch corners, Helium Whisper attachment system, etc), making weight ALWAYS a concern. Across the whole ensemble it delivers over 4 pounds of weight savings, about 50% lighter than issued equivalent. . I challenge everyone in DoD leadership and industriy who impacts what our warfighters carry to share this mindset and commitment.
The lighter the gear, the more of it can be carried. At the bottom of it all, the load carried by the troops becomes a leadership decision. Or non-decision. That 4 pounds saved will almost certainly be lost to 4 (or 5) more lbs of of ammo, or batteries, or whatever.
Exactly! How much durability and effectiveness are we losing in our gear by making lightweight the prime directive? Make it a design goal, sure, but not THE goal.
As a friend of mine said, those are going to look great on the hips of some officers in the rear.
Would of like to see a urgent need statement for getting the Marines heading down range some PVS-31B’s. At least then the normal rifleman would get them (hopefully)
Funny you should mention those exact NODS…….We are working on it!
Can’t they just get the hook up on the Glocks that we already provided to Iraq that then all too often were sold on the black market?
I cannot see a negative here. Maybe that’s because I’m a Marine and I appreciate a great handgun, or maybe it is because the way the article is written comes across with a patronizing attitude towards a sister service’s choice in handguns. Handguns are seldom used in modern combat, but when they are needed nothing else will do. If the Glock is better than the MHS, or M9A1 then let’s applaud their choice and move on. If MARSOC, Ranger Bat, and the rest of USSOCOM has them and only one service seems dead set against adopting the Glock then perhaps the questioning should be saved for them.
This isn’t a service choice, but rather a urgent need by 2nd MarDiv.
Right now, the Marine Corps Issues the M9 and M45A1. Add to that the recent purchase of the G19M for CID.
The Army Issues the M9, M11 and soon M17.
The Navy has a variety of hand guns and the Air Force issues the M9 and M11. They are both onboard with the M17, in the out years.
So far, only SOCOM issues Glocks. Every component gets them and it’s a good choice for their mission.
My question in this UONS is the “need”. What is the justification for the Glock?
And in particular, the 19M which has not undergone DoD testing. The 2nd MarDiv would be much better off buying Glocks off of the SOCOM Contract. I hear that those discussions have been made.
However, if the need is simply a pistol, there are loads of pistols in the system. For instance, all of those M9s displaced a few years ago.
Concur. I’m sure the Glock’s a fine pistol, but…it’s still just a 9mm pistol. The M9 is fine. I never thought it was heavy.
Looks like the Marines have decided that the p320 isn’t the pistol for them and have decided to go a different route. Sig will be lucky to meet the deadline to outfit the 101st with serviceable guns. Glock can out fit a couple MEUs right now with servicable guns. If the plan goes through by the time big Army is done fucking around with the sigs the Corps will be outfitted with G-Locks.
How does a UONS from 2nd MarDiv equate to “The Marines have decided”?
The official position of the USMC is that they look to transition to the M17 in the 20s.
“Look to transition to the M17 in the 20s” vs load up on as many of these Glocks we can get right now.
It’s chess not checkers and when the short comings of the M17 are laid bare some agressive 0-6 or CWO will point out they now have armories of Glocks.
Unless they buy off the SOCOM Contract, which the M models are not part of, they’ll need to conduct a whole new program to buy them. Even the previous buy is on shaky ground because it purchased off of a DoJ Contract, without all of the DoD testing.
Writing a new requirement, and conducting a new solicitation, will put them behind the Army’s MHS program, which, the Marine Corps signed up for.
The Marines are evaluating the compact version of the M17 for duty use the M18
http://www.businessinsider.com/marine-corps-following-armys-lead-and-adopting-a-new-smaller-handgun-2017-9
I’m curious as to who exactly is going to get them. TO and TE is not always followed even in line units; from my time deployed in Afghanistan with one, the only people that ever went outside the wire with an M9 were the company commander, EOD (as they opted not to carry rifles), XO, and maybe the S-shop heads when they were out and about.
I know there’s more to the division than the infantry battalions, but the rush and timing is odd. Where was the urgency to get something better than the worn out M9s during the height of the surge in 2009-2011ish?
I understand the USMC was exploring the compact XM18 for general issue, much like SOCOM uses the G19/Mk27. Considering that the MHS reliability testing of the XM18 compact model (only 1500 rounds per the GAO report) was not as complete as the XM17 full size model (12500 rounds), perhaps the USMC’s immediate requirement is better met by a pistol that has been subjected to more exhaustive reliability testing (the G19M was subjected to 20000 rounds of reliability testing by FBI).
In any case, the USMC is doing an excellent job of leveraging their partnerships – particularly with SOCOM (M27, Mk318, Suppressors, etc) and FBI (G19M) – to meet their requirements.
Not familiar with what the USMC elements deploying to Afghanistan are for but when UK forces deployed in a mentoring role or one in which they would be living with or working close to ANSF they were all equipped with handguns due to the insider threat issue.
Sometimes this caused issues with some Afghans objecting to our forces openly carrying weapons on there bases (“but you are safe here…”).
Could it be they want to issue a smaller pistol to be carried (sometimes openly sometimes concealed) for such circumstances. Presumably similar in reasoning for the SOCOM adoption of the Glock.
That’s a valid point.
That’s a legitimate point, the M9 can be a pig to conceal and I’ve heard tell a lot of folks are carrying concealed inside the wire out of necessity or from SOP currently.
Will be Marine’s be using the new 9mm Enhanced Barrier Round?
There’s not much info out there on it, but it looks like a 9mm version of the M855A1 projectile, but with cuts in the jacket to allow it to fragment at pistol velocities.
I’m thinking the paradigm change on pistols to Marines bound for A-stan is Green on Blue violence. A pistol that can be brought into service QUICKLY is what saves lives. A pistol that a local commander (with his own PSD) has deigned shall be holstered with the “dead man’s disconnect” enabled is NOT that pistol.
Some rando dude on the internet published a pretty good tease of the 19M here:
https://ssdaily.tempurl.host/2017/06/02/photos-glock-19m-internals/
Looking at the guts (and the knowledgeable commentary), I can see the attraction to this weapon.
The M9 is a good enough gun but another issue in a fast, violent fight is the sights. For what it cost for my ’92s to be retrofitted with tritium, I could almost have purchased G19s. Brigadier slide? Yeah, that weight issue…
The UONS is probably for far more guns than the normal BOIP, especially if these are guys RIPing with the ones who RIPed with me. As to why they’re not using/requesting M9s, my guess is a combination of the M9s are already parceled out and lead time to get more through supply channels vs. getting Glocks now. Similar argument for using the Glock vs. the M18; do the MHS guns physically exist yet.