Tactical Tailor

USSOCOM Issues Safety of Use Message for EOTech Enhanced Combat Optical Sights – Plus More Goings On

Over the past few weeks, three separate issues have come to our attention regarding EOTech’s line of Holographic Weapon Sights (HWS). While we initially thought they weren’t related as they came up one by one, we realized they were all connected once we had looked into all three. Consequently, we believe they should be presented together, along with the source documentation.

Safety Of Use Message Issued
Although it’s the last one we uncovered, we’ll begin with the most glaring piece of information. On 14 September, the SOF Weapons Program Management Office at NSWC Crane released a Safety of Use Message regarding issues with EOTech’s Enhanced Combat Optical Sights (ECOS), which is how they refer to HWS. This certainly caught our attention as the PMO is responsible for USSOCOM weapons. That message ultimately serves as the linchpin, tying together the other two issues we’ll soon address.

This critical bit of information would have been a stand-alone article, but it added credence to the others and offered coherence to some otherwise inexplicable issues. It also allowed us to concentrate on the facts presented in the various documentation. We will introduce the other issues after you get a chance to read the SOUM, which was obtained by Soldier Systems Daily. The Message has no date-time-group but was transmitted via official email traffic to SOF units on 14 September, 2015 and there are no markings limiting distribution.

Screenshot (64)

Click to view .pdf

While there is a great deal of information in the SOUM, two glaring issues stick out. The first is the reliability of the HWS in extreme temperatures, referred to as “Thermal Drift”. The PMO has noted a +/- 4 MOA shift at -40 Deg F and 122 Deg F. Second, is the concern over the claim by EOTech that their HWS are parallax free which was the subject of a previous Safety of Use Message from the same office issued 16 March, 2015. In this case they noted between 4 and 6 MOA parallax error depending on temperature conditions. Despite the PMO working with EOTech to rectify the issues, they still have not been resolved.

EOTech Updates User Manuals
EOTech seems to have officially backed off their previous claims regarding operational temperature ranges as well as parallax free attributes. Upon investigation, we noted that EOTech had changed the public specs for their HWS. Specifically, they published new manuals in June, 2015 which are available from the individual product listing pages on their website. Normally, this wouldn’t be that big of an issue by itself, but taken in conjunction with the other two pieces of information and what was removed from the manuals, it becomes so.

For example, they no longer claim that the Optics are “Parallax free”. They’ve also eliminated the temperature range from the manuals which is a pretty important factor for military operations. In the updated manuals, EOTech didn’t alert users to issues at extreme temperatures. Instead, they deleted references to operational temperature range altogether. Interestingly, both of these issues are addressed in the PMO’s Safety of Use Message we referenced earlier.

Although not addressed in this SOUM by the PMO, we also noticed in the latest versions (June 2015) of the user manuals that each click of sight adjustment is now “Approx. 0.5 MOA” rather than the more reassuring “0.5 MOA” cited in older manuals.

Here are some examples of old and new user manuals:

EXPS3 User Manual January 2011

EXPS3 User Manual June 2015

L3 Communications SEC Filing
The last issue we’ll address is actually the first one that came to our attention. In L3 Communications’ most recent 10-Q SEC Quarterly filing of early August for Q2, they mention issues with the HWS. This is a document prepared by EOTech’s parent company L3 Communications, advising their investors of any issues, good or bad, which might affect their investment. While companies obviously put on a public face, SEC filings have weight because they are legal submissions to the government. They must be accurate, regardless of the news.

L3 mentions recognizing “an aggregate liability of $26 million in anticipation of a settlement related to a product specification matter regarding a holographic weapon sight product in the Warrior Systems sector of the Electronic Systems segment.” As we are unaware of any pending civil suits regarding the HWS, the question remains as to whom EOTech might owe such a large sum of money. We must point out that the government has acknowledged issues with the HWS in at least two SOUM from the SOF Weapons PMO. We’d also like to mention that the Quarterly filing talks of possible consequences if the company is implicated in wrongdoing regarding government contracts.

The SEC filing goes on to state that while, “The Company does not currently anticipate that any of these investigations will have a material adverse effect, individually or in the aggregate, on its consolidated financial position, results of operations or cash flows. However, under U.S. Government regulations, an indictment of the Company by a federal grand jury, or an administrative finding against the Company as to its present responsibility to be a U.S. Government contractor or subcontractor, could result in the Company being suspended for a period of time from eligibility for awards of new government contracts or task orders or in a loss of export privileges. A conviction, or an administrative finding against the Company that satisfies the requisite level of seriousness, could result in debarment from contracting with the federal government for a specified term.” They also recognize that, “Foreign government contracts generally include comparable provisions relating to terminations for convenience or default, as well as other procurement clauses relevant to the foreign government.” This can be pretty serious stuff.

The SEC Quarterly filing can be found here.

Putting It All Together
As you can see, the three pieces of information certainly seem related when presented together. In the same quarter, EOTech changed their HWS user manuals and acknowledged in an SEC filing, “aggregate liability of $26 million in anticipation of a settlement related to a product specification matter regarding a holographic weapon sight product…” In the next quarter, USSOCOM issues a Safety Of Use Message that addresses the very information removed from the HWS user manuals.

Data Was Right There In The Open
The documentation was readily available prior to its publication here, to anyone who knew where to look. While EOTech has made no public statements so far, regarding the issues with the performance of their family of HWS, they certainly haven’t hidden them either. To the contrary, we wouldn’t have discovered the issues so easily if they’d tried to hide them. They’ve published new versions of their user manuals and made them available to the public, as well as making an SEC filing which is public record and acknowledges there is an issue afoot. While it would be nice to see EOTech publicly acknowledge the issue, it would be interesting to find out how long they’ve known about it. Regardless, the only thing that remains up in the air, is whether L3 Communications will be required to pay that $26 million, to whom they would pay it, and if there will be any additional stipulations.

Let’s Hope They Fix It
In closing, we suggest that both commercial and military users of EOTech HWS read the SOUM, since EOTech has still not specifically addressed its customers regarding the issues. We hope that they do soon and offer a solution to rectify these issues.

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199 Responses to “USSOCOM Issues Safety of Use Message for EOTech Enhanced Combat Optical Sights – Plus More Goings On”

  1. Paul J says:

    That’s huge!
    Thanks for the info.

  2. Whacker15 says:

    I remember being issued an M-68 and thinking how cool EOTECH was……than I was issued a HWS and ran right back to my M-68

  3. echo says:

    For thick headed guys like me what does this mean to an end user who is LEO and works in the Midwest? Our temps fluctuate and we have had more -20 to -40 days in the pat few years. Temps can get high obviously as guns sit in patrol cars. Should we be checking zero more often, starting to transition to other red dot type devices? Thanks for any input.

    • PJ says:

      Doesn’t look like checking zeros would be much help for a patrol rifle. The zero can change when exposed to high or low temperatures and then not go back. Additionally the parallax is amplified at lower temps.
      If it were me I’d be looking for an Aimpoint.

      • TheWraith says:

        “If it were me I’d be looking for an Aimpoint.”

        Why? Aimpoints are only Parallax free beyond 50 yards. In terms of CQB, and +/-4MOA, you’re still only talking (AT MOST) having a POI 1″ off your POA. In close quarters, less than 25 yards in particular, if you’re holding center mass that 1″ isn’t going to matter.

        At all.

        • PJ says:

          Did you miss the part about the shifting zero during temperature fluctuations? Particularly the part where it remains shifted even when the temperature changes back? That’s a much bigger issue than the parallax.

        • Matt says:

          Everybody knows Eotech has been having issues for years. Now Eotech isnt parallax free either. Even before all of this nonsense going on, it was common knowledge that no sight is truly parallax free in close ranges. Watch any of the reviews on youtube, and they all have slight shift. Though Id say 75% to 80% of those people ultimately recommend the Aimpoints over Eotech. And this is hard for me because Ive always loved Eotechs. I love the square, easy to see through housing, I love the reticle. Man, is it lightning fast at close range. Thats what the outside circle is for, just plant it center and bam, hit. Then out at range you have a very accurate 1moa center dot. But theyve just had too many issues, and its sad to say I too am going over to Aimpoint. I wish somebody would make a similar reticle and housing to that of the Eotech and have it actually work. Maybe the downfall was the Holograph and not the traditional red dot LED or whatever its emitter is. Again this saddens me as Ive always loved Eotechs, but after a hundred reviews on youtube and countless issues over the last decade I am going to Aimpoint. The PRO is an amazing optic, especially being just around 420$ which is cheaper than an Eotech. Its a great optic and I have personally seen it take numerous hard hits during training and over and over again come back working fine. And then theres the T-1 and H-1. Hell just watch Larry Vickers review of the Daniel Defense torture test and youll see how much abuse that T1 can take. I mean it was blown up, glass broken, all F’ed up and still worked and it held zero. I trust my life to that anyday, not to mention you can turn it on and literally leave it on, on your normal setting for 3 to 5 years. No lie. Check it out.

          • Lucas says:

            According to Aimpoint Micro T-1’s manual:
            “Over 5 years of continuous (day and night) use at pos 8 of 12 and over 10 months at pos 10 of 12. Typically 500 000 h³ at NVD setting. Storage battery 10 years”.

            That’s a hella long time haha.

      • South Florida Leo says:

        To all of my brothers in Blue….several years ago I bought my first optic an Eotech 512. The batteries went from a 6 month span, to 3, months, down to 1 month. Finally it got so bad everytime it felt like every other time I turned it on….it would not work at all. It was 6 bucks every other use. The worst part about it all is that my zero went off everytime. I could no longer trust my life to That optic. In the end, I went with AIMPOINT. Now I own 2 of them. The battery life and reliability is beyond compare. Please please please…to my brothers in blue, if you work in south Florida and or any of these or states where the trunks get super hot you are high susceptible to having your Eotech fail you. Toss that trash and get an AIMPOINT.

      • PT6 says:

        For
        Those who work in these extremes, just get an aimpoint T-2

        • Jake James says:

          Get a Trijicon MRO, USA made, bigger objective lens.

          • t1tan says:

            As good as the MRO looks on paper, lots of examples are leading to complaints about magnification/parallax/tint.

            Personally I won’t support an openly religious company that lasers bible shit on their products, MRO included.

            • Leeada Johnson says:

              Leaving NYC and wandering about for 35 years, including many years working for the Australian Government, I started off with my NYC atheist secular prejudice about religious people, then working for Dept Employment, Ed, Training and Youth Affairs in Israel and Australia. I’m still an atheist, but I choose the company of religious people, and organizations and Companies that lazer “Bible Shit” as you so gracelessly put it. They’ve helped me solve problems of real people in real need. I’ve dealt with companies of tradesmen manufacturers and retailers of Orthodox Jews and devout Christians, and they’ve always treated me well, and delivered honestly fairly and generously. I will buy their products out of preference. Your bigotry is your issue. I learned as well that in the liberal world, no lib will stop and help when you’re stuck by the roadside, but conservatives do, really help, and a lot of them live by that “Bible Shit” and that’s my experience in the USA, Australia, and Israel. In exchange I will defend them, or any black, brown or yellow innocent person. You are a different matter, you can fix your own car, and if it’s 500 km to the nearest petrol/gas station in the Nullabor, you can walk….

              • Leeada Johnson says:

                And I like Aimpoints, and also have an ultra dot from the mid 80s, using the original 30 year old battery. That seems impossible, but it still works fine. I’m not a PO or a LEO, or military so I don’t need that kind of super robust build. I always carry a spare ultra light optic already sighted in Weaver Rings to Weaver bases, and fitted right, they come on and off no worse than 1/2 MOA shift, and given that every time is a different place, temp, condition, it may be shifting less than that.

      • David atthews says:

        Or maybe one of the new German Steiner MRS

    • John Gavin says:

      Short term fix is ensure your EOTech and BUIS are both zeroed at the same POA/POI, then use your BUIS to comfirm EOtech zero regularly. To write the obvious, this is done without firing the weapon. Point the weapon in a safe direction, and confirm that the EOtech reticle lines up exactly with the BUIS.

      • Doc_Hurley says:

        This is assuming that you are running absolute co witness, and even then it is “close” but not a true zero.

        • TF82 says:

          Nope, even with a lower 1/3 cowitness, when you line up your iron sights your Eotech will line up with them. The dot will just be in the lower 1/3 of the window.

      • Daniel says:

        You can also carefully place your muzzle device flat against a wall while doing this so that you ensure your weapon is “flat” when adjusting. It is even better when you get someone else to do the adjustments for you. Obviously the weapon needs to be safe when you do this.

      • Moose1am says:

        I can do that and check out my zero. Even better is to use one of them bullet shaped laser bore slighter that shine the green or red laser beam down inside the total length of the barrel. These can be used to double check your zero on any optic system quickly at short range.

    • Carlos says:

      IMHO, using an optic on your Patrol Rifle that (a) Requires you to turn it on; and (b) Requires you to change the batteries because of battery life is a mistake. Those two are the main reasons I got rid of my Eotech and switched to the Aimpoints and never looked back. I can leave my Aimpoint H-1 Micro on for up to 5-years without any worry that the dot will not be there when I need it the most. Although, I do change out the CR2032 batteries every year or two just because that $5 isn’t all that expensive.

      A little more than 10-years ago, a local SWAT team experienced a huge problem with their Eotechs when they had to replace the batteries (IIRC, CR123s) DAILY, if they leave their Eo-equipped M4s in their Patrol Cars during the cold nights. And we’re not talking winter months either, we’re talking about the lows 50s. YMMV.

      • Tremis says:

        Have you actually verified the 5 year battery life? My PRO is good for 6-8 weeks.

        • Mike in Fort Worth says:

          Brother, I would send that optic back if you’re only getting 6-8 weeks. I had an older ML-2 and it left it on for well over a year and it worked fine. That’s with being stored in a trunk in the Texas heat. The PRO should be giving you somewhere in the 3-5 year range.

          • Carlos says:

            What he said. I have yet to have any of my Aimpoints’ bateries fail. What setting did you leave it on?

      • Moose1am says:

        How do you know it was not the Batteries fault. Not all batteries are fee of faults. You don’t really know how long a battery has been sitting around before you get your hands on them. And some are just not right from the get go.

        I had a recent experience with a TV remote that was not working. The client said that they put new batteries in it. But when I arrived at the site and tested both batteries one of them was DEAD. The other was ok but since the TV Remote required both batteries to be good before it would work the one dead battery was causing the remote to not function. All this could have been prevented with a simple battery tester.
        Another trick is to use the camera on your cell phone to see if the IR light on the remote is working. The camera on your cell phone can see IR light while your eyes can’t.

    • mccglastron1972 says:

      If you do switch, go to the Meprolight Tru-dot RDS, very eotech like, with aimpoint like battery life, but much cheaper. I’m a Midwest tax payer, lol!

      • David atthews says:

        Steiner M R S

      • Jon says:

        I have one of the Tru-dots as well. The eotech style window is incredible compared to the tubular design of an aimpoint. It is about the same price point as an aimpoint, but I definitely prefer it to any tubular red dot.

  4. Chicken Legs says:

    Ouch…this is gonna leave a mark.

  5. Reeky says:

    EOTech vs Aimpoint debate over?

  6. Dave says:

    This would explain Vickers’ Aimpoint post yesterday. The internet might break today with the “I told ya so” comments flying around.

  7. bulldog76 says:

    well looks like im gonna be looking into aimpoint or the mro …..

  8. joe_momma says:

    Cue the “WTS: Lightly used Eotech” and “WTT: Eotech for Aimpoint” floods

  9. Steven Wilgus says:

    Well, this is disturbing. I run EOTech on all my builds. , five now. With two spare systems in the box still. I hope and pray the issue is an easy fix.

    All my friends who are rabid Aimpoint fans are going flood Facebook with “I told you so”…memes.

    This is not good…

  10. kitcrazy says:

    Interesting to me that these are what were sitting on top of the German G36s that initially started all the G36s are unsuitable for combat stuff. Not saying it was the sights only, but was it a factor? I’ll be honest I have always hated the tv on a coffee table look of the eotech as well as its height on rifles other than m4 styles. I love aimpoint everything.

    • GermanExMil says:

      I want to clear something up about the G36 scandal that frequently comes up due to excessive missinformation:

      There are basically 2 different variants of G36 rifles. The German(lets call it G) one and the E(export) version.

      The G36 G was developed based on specifications by the German military. They wanted a light gun, easy to maintain, decent accuracy, decent optic, decent everything, usable under West/East-European weather conditions and temperature ranges. These specifications were set shortly after the fall of the iron curtain, Germany didnt expect to ever send troops anywhere, especially not regions like the middle east. To reach the requested specification H&K used cheap ingredients in their polymer mixture that eventually lead to the problems the German military has today.

      After the G36 was introduced to the German military other countries had interest in adapting the rifle too. They had different, much tougher specifications though, this is why H&K build the E version for export. This is why other nations never ran into problems with their G36, only the Germans did.

      Now for the EoTechs: These were only mounted on the K versions of the G36 the standard rifle that had the reported issues used the proprietary and vastly inferior optic that came with the gun.

      • Q says:

        Not true at all. Our SWAT team had several G36 rifles that couldn’t hold zero and suffered from terrible accuracy. They functioned well but suffered greatly in the accuracy department. HK tried but could not make them suitable for police work. We were pretty happy to get rid of them.

  11. John says:

    There is also an SOUM out on them because the reticle has been disappearing at certain angles. This last trip running commandos i looked down at my Eotech to check the brightness since dawn was approaching and I couldnt see my reticle. I moved around fishing for the reticle and found it. The reticle faded and then disappeared on certain edges of the optic.

  12. Weaver says:

    As many have predicted, the Internet is blowing up with “I told you so’s” from Aimpoint fanboyz and EOTech haterz.

    The thing is – this data is only now coming out – what did they base their “assessment” on before this? Oh, that’s right – nothing at all.

    Great example of confirmation bias in action.

    • bluenoser says:

      It’s like Jade Helm!

      I’m still waiting for Adam to eat the crow.

    • SSD says:

      To be honest they’ve had battery issues in the past. I own four EOTech sights that are my kids’ guns and they work for us.

      • Weaver says:

        Agreed, but the battery / battery cap issues aren’t what’s being claimed now – I’ve seen a lot of “I was saying that all along” nonsense related to the POI shift.

    • Dave says:

      Yep, cause people aren’t allowed to have personal experience or preferences until it’s officially released by SOCOM. Aimpoint v. Eotech aside, I hope this aids in people not defaulting to:

      “Well, SOCOM/Delta/NASA doorgunners issue (product), that’s why I use it.”

      Prior to this there was always battery life, durability, price, and like/dislike of the reticle design.

    • Wrong Weaver – I HAVE been saying it all along; in my classes and travels I have seen more red dot sights of any flavor than you can even dream about. I have warned people about Eotech issues for years – if ANYONE can say I told you so it is me- and trust me it is based on personal experience.

      • Weaver says:

        Mr Vickers, I was not speaking of you at all when I referred to those blowing up the Internet with unsupported “I told you so” and “I knew it all along” comments – as you note, very few have your experience, thus few have the ability to truthfully make the claims that you make truthfully – but which scads of others are still making.

        • Thomas says:

          @ Weaver No really…Larry has been talking about this for YEARS. But, there were Eotech’s on the UBL raid. I see a lot of the CAG guys rocking EoTechs. I wonder if they have sorted the problems out for the Elite Mil guys

          • MikeB. says:

            Is there any real way to know what those guys are really using? I guess it is safe to say the SEALS used Eotechs on their rifles on the Bin Laden raid. I have seen pics online. But what about LAV’s former unit? Is there any real way to know what they use and prefer?

            • Thomas says:

              Hey MikeB

              You are absolutely right. I just see a lot of Former CAG/DEV/SF guys using EoTechs in training. Not to mention Nooner/Mike Pannone is always rocking one.

              • MikeB. says:

                Thomas,
                I am not knocking you or your statement at all. Just wanted you to know that. You are right about all the retired guys using them. Well, a lot of the guys are using them. LAV obviously, doesn’t. I wish someone could drop some discreet info on us as to who is using what.

                • Thomas says:

                  Hey MikeB

                  Your were polite and professional. Something does seem amiss. If EoTechs were so awful why would the DEVGRU guys be allowed to carry them on the UBL raid. If Mark Owens story is true, I am about 90% sure most of it is true, why was he allowed to carry an EoTech? Something doesn’t seem right. I am thinking L3 got on someones bad side in Washington.

                  Here is a link to a Soldier Systems article. “THE Rifle”…that put a round in UBL’s body…with an EoTech.

                  http://soldiersystems.net/2014/02/24/rifle/

                  • MikeB. says:

                    Thomas,
                    Thanks for posting that link. Good info for us mortal men to have. You may be onto something. If L3 has rubbed somebody the wrong way, I wonder if we will ever know.

                    If these were known facts byUSSOCOM , would they knowingly let the SEALS carry weapons with the Eotech mounted on them on that mission?

                    This issue will be interesting to watch and see how it develops.

      • Thomas says:

        Hey Larry. I see a lot of pics of CAG/DEVGRU guys using EoTechs. Even a lot of the DEVGRU/CAG/SF guys are using them in training. (JD, Defoor, Proctor, Haley) I am just wondering if there is something afoot. (Like did L3 piss of someone in Washington) No doubt about it, the early Eotech/Bushnell HaloSights had problems. I though the new crop was better.

        Oh well..I am just keep rocking my Aimpoint PRO, which is still going strong on its original battery.

        Have a good one. Thank you Sir.

        • A lot of guys used what was issued – plain and simple. The Eotech was issued – that’s what they used. Most of them are great operators but not gun guys; that a misconception that a lot of people have – that guys in SOF are bigtime gun guys and are up to date on the latest and greatest guns and gear. Not true – they are just good dudes doing their job with what is issued to them- plain and simple. Asking them about the pros and cons of different brands of sights, carbines or pistols is out of their lane – they know what they use and that means what is issued.

          • Jon, OPT says:

            Amen, when it comes to work it’s tactics and operations; when it comes to off time it’s family and hobbies, a very small %age are equipment enthusiasts. One of the most common misconceptions about SOF in the gear/gun aficionado communities.

            Jon, OPT

          • MikeB. says:

            Mr. Vickers,
            In that unit you were in, if you were a gun guy or into gear, were you looked down on in any way or did people seek you out for your opinion?

            • SSD says:

              Lol, I’ve seen some goofy questions in my day but this one wins a prize. Who asks a question like that of anyone?

              • MikeB. says:

                I did. Looking at it now, it is really stupid. You are right. I am embarrassed but I will own it. Unless of course, it could be deleted.

                I will not post anymore for a while.

              • Joe says:

                How so exactly? I was “that guy” in all the squads I was in that was the “gear queer” that made skings, fixed guys CIRAS Vests, helped guys zero thier weapons, modify Safariland holsters, and ghetto rig assault gear like ladders, hooligans, and blast blankets. Everybody talked trash until somebody’s kit broke, or they needed a sling. I would be interested to know if the the guy who’s keeping everyone else get up to speed on gear, and helping guys fit thier gear more efficientlyrics is made fun of in a Tier 1 unit as I was in multiple Tier 2 units.

                • SSD says:

                  The question came across to me as, “who the hell do you think you are to tell people about guns. Come on, tell us, people made fun of you didn’t they?”

                  So, I’ll ask it. LAV, did people pick on you at Delta because you knew all about guns or did you end up working at OTC and as a weapons program SME?

                  • Tier One SOF has the HK416 because of me and it was the gun used to kill UBL – so I think you can say no, I wasn’t picked on for being a gun nerd

                    And outside of the military my knowledge has made me a millionaire so you tell me – am I a gun geek nerd or not ?

                    • Evan says:

                      Oh you’re a gun geek alright. The most enthusiastic and knowledgeable I’ve ever met… And that’s a pretty high bar.

                  • MikeB. says:

                    That was not my intent SSD. I was genuinely asking. Right or wrong.

          • Thomas says:

            Very logical answer. From personal experience, I shoot with a lot of former soldiers. Their gun knowledge is always lacking.

            Thank you Sir. I hope this finds you well.

          • Kemp says:

            LAV, respectfully, ‘ve always found the “they use what’s issued” argument confusing in the context of Jsoc. You’ve elaborated yourself on how the 416 and short dot were developed on request. Recently there have been a plethora of 416 and glock accessories that originated from SMU requirements. KAC has a long history of delivering unit specific weapons systems and accessories. 5.56 munitions developments of the past decade have been influenced to a great degree by sof requirements. Half the product lineup of Crye precision is driven by SMU specs. It seems to me that rather than settling for what’s available, these units actively seek out industry solutions to their problems. Why have eotechs been in use for over a decade if they’re so plagued by problems?

            • Dev says:

              The shooters use what they think is the best tool for the job.

              The shooters pass feedback up the chain what they like / dislike and what they need / don’t need.

              The shooters get kit in response to their feedback, regardless how “geeky” they are in relationship to their kit.

              How hard is that to understand?

              • Kemp says:

                It’s not. Your answer is simply my question worded differently. Let me condense it: if experience drives acquisition, why hasn’t the eotech disappeared from jsoc in over a decade?

                • Jon, OPT says:

                  If Aimpoint came out with a 1 moa, I know a bunch of people who would have dropped EO Tech years ago. That was the only thing it had as an advantage.

                  Jon, OPT

                  • Kemp says:

                    Thanks, Jon. So perhaps to some the eo’s reticle outweighs it’s reliability drawbacks?

                    • Jon, OPT says:

                      First, I don’t speak for JSOC Operators, but with most competent shooters in SF it came down to red dot size, or economic feasibility of a (with mount) $700 gun accoutrement. Just my experience.

                      Jon, OPT

                  • David atthews says:

                    Try Steiner Micro Reflex Sight MRS

        • Lowest bidder on government contract.

          • Moose1am says:

            I sure hope not.

            Does anyone remember or has anyone read about the faulty detonators on the Mark 14 torpedoes that were used on the US Submarines around 1942 during WWII in the Pacific ocean? It took months of reports from Sub Captains telling their bosses that the Torpedoes were not working before the navy brass finally ordered them tested again. They were fired against some steep cliffs along the ocean side and then recovered when they failed to go off. They found that the detonators on the torpedoes were being smashed when they hit something at the right angle and therefore the detonator was destroyed before it set off the explosives in the torpedoes. After the testing they fixed the detonators and the US Sub Captains started to get many more hits and kills. Before the fix on those captains that shot poorly and hit the enemy ships at a oblique angle got the torpedoes to go off. The detonators only got crushed before they detonated the torpedoes on poor angled shots. Good shoots resulted in the torpedo not exploding. This frustrated many US Sub Captains for many months and cost more than a few lives.

            The Navy or the Military needs to make sure that the weapons that are being procured for our men to use in war are the very best that they can be. To do less is a crime IMHO.

      • Justin says:

        With all due respect Larry, you’re sponsored by Aimpoint just like you were/are? by Fireclean (barring the questionable “reloaded” ammo issue). Look, I believe that Aimpoint offers the more durable optic, but with that said, I think we might be getting the cart before the horse here. No official statement has even been made by Eotech yet DESPITE their transparency with issues. And until Aimpoint offers a better field of view with a reticule that’s as functional, with a dot that doesn’t blur as readily for people with astigmatism, then the only thing they’ve got going for them is durability. JMO.

    • Carlos says:

      Mr Weaver, with all due respect. If you have not heard people, to include end-users and Instructors, voice their warnings about the “EOTurd” you need to get out more. I could name off a who’s-who of individuals from whom I have personally heard caution about using this optic based on their actual experiences and observations of thousands of students who have attended their Rifle or Carbine Courses throughout the years.

      But even if you ignore those SMEs, USSOCOM put out a recall on these same sights about a decade ago because of failures in the field due to failures in the battery contacts.

      Despite what you have mistakenly opined in, some of us prefer to use equipment that actually works. I have not been shooting and carrying a Glock for the better part of the last 20-years because it is pretty. I do so because it works and I have a Glock 30 that I ran through the ringer, not just as a CC handgun, but also as my duty gun that I carried in a Level 3 holster and shot more than 20,000 documented rounds to include multiple Handgun Courses through.

      In shooting tens of thousands of rounds through my ARs over the years, I have not had a single failure with any of my Aimpoints. While I once owned an EOTech for all of 1-year, the cost of batteries convinced me to sell it for my first Aimpoint (an ML2) and I have not looked back.

      Please don’t insult us with your holier than thou “you must be a fanboy if you don’t like the same equipment I do” bullshit. Some of us actually chose out gear based on performance, quality AND the accompanying Manufacturers’ Customer Service versus any kind of brand name because we take our responsibility for our own self-defense seriously.

  13. jks says:

    Approximately .5 ??,,,?

  14. jbgleason says:

    From an industry perspective, does this product ever recover from this? Even if they fix the issue, can they overcome the tumors and negative press? As a company, would you kill the product line? Fix it? Lower the price on reintroduction?

    Makes for some interesting scenarios for an MBA class.

    • jbgleason says:

      Rumors. Damn spell corrector. Of course, maybe the sight has a tumor and that is the issue. Haha.

    • Jim D says:

      The overwhelming majority of end users don’t stay up on this kind of news. Think about how many people talk about “knockdown power”, carry in a SERPA, and keep their guns dry because “lube attracts dirt”.

      Stomping out bad info in the gun industry takes decades.

        • jbgleason says:

          True but then again I think of the UNTRUE rumors that have crushed otherwise good products and it makes me wonder if this will catch on. Remember that we live in the age of social media and Google. If this were ten or fifteen years ago, no one would see the SOCOM letter but today… We are all here talking about it and you better believe Google will be pointing to it by tomorrow. Hell, if I was an Aimpoint Exec (not bashing, just pointing out a good business practice) you better believe I would have a Search Engine Optimization guy hanging that document on every website I could find.

          • jim d says:

            Sure, but the percentage of the gun buying public that reads forums is a single digit percentage, the group that participates is even less, and the percentage that uses the available knowledge for anything other than entertainment is what… maybe 1% of gun owners?

            There have been over 20,000,000 background checks on firearms purchases every year for the past 5+ years.

            I work for an Aimpoint dealer that won a “dealer of the year” award in 2012 and 2013. We sold roughly 1,000 Aimpoints in each of those years.

            You can’t sit in a gun shop, or on a public shooting range for more than a hour without hearing about how .223 is a wounding caliber, or how a .45acp will take a mans arm off, how you can’t miss with a shotgun for home defense, a 9mm is a pea shooter, or any other variety of old wives tales that surrounds this industry.

            Hell, we still have 11B’s and 0311’s coming back from combat deployments that don’t know how to lubricate the very weapon they used properly.

            This entire issue will be little more than a blip on the radar of L3’s sales on this product line.

            Look at how many Kimber’s are sold every year, and the word has been out on them for over a decade at this point.

            • SSD says:

              This issue may well put an end to government procurement of their sights if they don’t adequately address the issues that have arisen.

            • BAP45 says:

              Forgive my ignorance, but what happened to Kimber?

              • Jim D says:

                They make an overpriced gun with poor quality drop-in parts that seldom run properly.

                • thebronze says:

                  Kimbers are pieces of crap and have LONG suffered from feeding problems (like many 1911’s).

                  What Jim D said is why I laugh whenever I see someone carrying a Kimber because they “think” they’ve got a great gun. Anyone that carries a Kimber doesn’t know guns that well.

                  SMDH…

                  • BAP45 says:

                    Oh dang, I just couldn’t stand the giant logo on the side when I was looking at options years ago. Good to know.

      • balais says:

        “carry in a SERPA”

        hahaha im surprised anybody chooses to run one of them POSes any more…

  15. B says:

    I was told by an FBI Firearms Instructor that the FBI Ballistics Research Facility has tested their issued EOTechs and found that POI shifted far enough that some authorized service rounds were impacting outside of a Q target at 50 yards. All service rounds showed significant POI shift with temperature change. The manufacturer acknowledged the problem and offered no fix for it. The newest configuration FBI carbine is being issued with an Aimpoint H-1.

  16. Geoff says:

    What exam does this mean for those of us in moderate climates that run 0* at the coldest and 100* at the warmest?

    • Jake says:

      Geoff,
      Do you ever leave it in a vehicle? Take a temperature reading in a car trunk on a summer day or winter night.
      You can surpass those quickly.

  17. VW emissions are one thing, but hell people are using these things to stay alive, it never ceases to amaze me what people will do to make money!

  18. Devon Fitzer says:

    I’ve had my 553 for almost 5 years now it was zeroed once and has been taken on and off the rifle multiple times and still holds the original zero. I’m assuming I’m just lucky from what I’m reading from others.

    • How your optic ran though? Cases of ammo annually and stored in a pelican in your patrol vehicle? Or a safe rider only broken out for a few hundred rounds?

      • Devon Fitzer says:

        Nothing crazy, usually 120 rounds a month on average I’d say. Maybe twice that on occasion. It’s certainly not having 2000 rounds put through it in a 2 day carbine course. It’s typically stored in a soft case in the trunk. Like I said I’m sure I just have the benefit of luck, just sharing my experiance.

        • BAP45 says:

          I’m in the same boat, mine has worked fine so far but I’m also in a very temperate area and my range time is practically nil these days so not the best example. But it still concerns and disappoints me to hear this. Always going to be wondering now if its going to perform.

  19. usaeod911 says:

    Personally, I go by what I know or what I have experienced. With that said, I have used Aimpoint, Trijicon, but never EOTech. However, I don’t listen to what some buddy tells me….If I can’t use it, I can’t comment on it but with this news from Crane, it is a little disturbing that USSOCOM has these HWS and that they may or may not hit the target in extreme temps. That does worry me.

  20. Chris says:

    Has anyone tried rubbing Fireclean on it. I heard that vegetable oil reduces parallax to almost nothing.

    Sorry I had to :)

    • SSD says:

      No, you didn’t. One trainwreck at a time please.

      • bulldog76 says:

        hahahahahaha

        • H.C. says:

          this absolutely killed me…

          but I have like 5 EoTechs, ranging from 512s, 553, and EXPS-2s and -3s, I love them all, but most of the time I am a daytime range clown not out in the hot or cold for more than a few hours… so ive never really had a problem aside from having to send one or two back for nitrogen purging…

          perhaps my next optic will be an aimpoint t2 instead of another EoTech…

          as always, great article SSD

  21. The Original Brad says:

    Iron sights. It always goes back to iron sights.

    • jbgleason says:

      And muzzleloaders never have a double feed.

      Please tell me you aren’t one of those guys still rocking a carry handle and telling everyone at the shooting bench how it is just as fast as one of those battery powered dot sights.

      • AbnMedOps says:

        “And muzzleloaders never have a double feed”… lol. That reminded me of something I once read, about many Civil War muskets policed up off the battlefield, and being found to have 5 or 6 successive charges of powder and ball rammed down the barrel. Between the deafening roar of “In volley…FIRE!”, sheer adrenaline overload, and the pants-pissing terror occasioned by in-the,open, ranks-vs.ranks infantry tactics, it was easy to lose track of whether one’s piece had even fired.

      • balais says:

        pretty funny reply.

        speaking from personal experience, ive had somebody do exactly the following: try to justify to me, smugly, how their irons were just as fast as my aimpoint.

        Of course I believed him (LOL)

  22. CJ says:

    My first tactical optic was an Eotech. I put too many rounds through a rifle it was on, and overheated it. I had blank spots, and lost the reticle in a large potion of the window after that. It was a $400 mistake. Won’t buy or recommend eotech.

  23. straps says:

    I’ve had great luck with my 551 and 553. I’m one guy who lives in a blessedly moderate climate and no longer pushes his equipment to its limits (though the 551 sat on my M4 for 1 rotation and on a ‘249 for another).

    Curious to know if the POI flaw is in the engineering or manufacturing. I’ve used my 553 in 110° conditions with a magnifier on it and it was good to 300 yards (yeah I know, sissy shooting) with holds for wind and mirage yielding predictable results.

    I was on the fence about another 553 (love the FOV) vs an Aimpoint. No more, I guess. Probably gonna be moving my 551 and 553 to my shotguns, where POI drift isn’t quite as much of an issue.

    • HTEngg says:

      This is my question as well. Can it be fixed or is it going to be chronic condition.

      Also, SSD your timing sucks. I’ve been trying to sell mine for the past month, couldn’t you and LAV have held off until I unloaded it and got my T1? 😉 Something tells me this is going to tank my asking price…

    • Rob Collins says:

      I was thinking of slapping it on my Super Black Eagle too, Straps as I was reading these. Battery life, ain’t great, but I haven’t noticed a shift, but, I have mine on an AK. (that I built, but pop cans at 75 yds offhand have always been a sure thing with it)

      Wing shooting with an EOTech would mean I could blame the EOTech for my crappy shooting… My estimate is that my sale value = ~$0.

  24. Ted Danson says:

    Aside from all the POI shifts and fragility, the battery life was the killer from the get-go for me.

    Trijicons and Aimpoints. I would love to try a zero magnification ACOG someday. The 1.5s aren’t bad but not the same.
    I think 90% of the appeal of EOTechs with SOCOM was the fact that GP forces didn’t have them.
    Better to be different than effective. The reticle is nice, but not worth the known negatives, much less the POI shift issue

  25. Shawn Wood says:

    For many years I’ve told my friends and directed other gun enthusiasts not to get reliant on technology. Especially those whom routinely go into harms way. Too many variables can go wrong with electronics in harsh environments. I will say weapon sighting systems such as the HWS and others make acquiring targets faster and arguably “easier”. But equal training time is required to stay proficient with iron sights. I’ve seen several slap an Aimpoint, Eotech,ect… on their rifles and think that’s it.
    But I do think Eotech HWS is a good product as well as many others. All of the manufacturers and all their products have there drawbacks. In my opinion there is no perfect HWS, scope, nor weapon system. But I am thankful that companies like L3 are continually making advancements in technology to help our soldiers on the field get home safely and defend freedom. Thank you for providing such great information.

  26. Justin says:

    I am curious why issue the statement now. I could entirely be wrong but weren’t Eotech sights used by a lot of SOF guys in Iraq? I imagine something so serious would have been noticed in the 110+ days in the summer, way back in the beginning of the conflict.

    As far as a quick fix, there isn’t one. A redesign of the internals is the only way it can be solved. The sights in circulation will forever be subject to the POI shift.

    Looks like out a caution I will avoid Eotech for a while. Hopefully the MRO holds up to the stellar reviews it has received so far. I liked the Eotech for its FOV, and from what I’ve read, the MRO looks great through the optic.

    • Jon, OPT says:

      EO Tech wasn’t part of SOPMOD until SOPMOD 2, which was around 2008 for fielding, not quite the beginning, though some units had them purchased as part of their DSOR. Just an FYI.

      My last team was having POA POI shift issues in 2013 when we did PMT in winter condition with weapons zeroed in Thailand, this definitely explains that phenom, it was frustrating for us all, I have used Aimpoint since 2008 and not looked back. The 552 (pre-L3) I ran years ago was spot on, but it was consistently used in the tropics and sub-tropics.

      Jon, OPT

      • Tom Hardy says:

        False, eotechs have been part of the sopmod kit since block 1.

          • Jon, OPT says:

            Thank you. Only as a phased replacement, that most units didn’t get until way down the road if at all. It wasn’t part of the original SOPMOD kit during initial issue.

            Jon, OPT

            • Tom Hardy says:

              We had them in 06 is all I all I can say.

              • Jon, OPT says:

                Same year we got them, and I was in a FWD BN which always got theirs last; same year we got our CIRAS and PCU which most Groups has 2 years prior.

                • Mark m says:

                  Jon, This is a question, not an argument. Given a middle aged man in the burbs that goes basically to the range is this really an issue? It sucks and I like to have the confidence that I can drill tacks anywhere anytime but the reality is that just ain t the case. So would the average joe with a moderate amount of skills and an assumed maximum engagement of say 50 meters be affected enough to spend the money on an aimpoint. My limited understanding is that my point of aim would be off by 2 inches in that situation. Am I trying to end up with the ultimate in precision when under severe stress I wouldn t be within 12 inches let alone 2? Tighter is better but would it matter real world.

                  • SSD says:

                    I’d say that if you don’t care if your sight is off, save a bunch of cash and just buy a gun show special.

                    • Mark m says:

                      I did not make myself clear. I am not happy about it and thought I drove towards a system that was as as accurate as possible without an unlimited budget. The question was more about the cost/benefit than being satisfied with a degraded system. I am not. In that light the question was essentially how much safer is a reasonably competent shooter ( and his family) under stress conditions with engagements out probably no more than 50 meters after he drops $800 on an Aimpoint T2. I want to be as accurate as possible and in a perfect world I would upgrade. Having zero.zero experience in combat type situations I have no idea. That is the jist of the question.

          • DKRecce says:

            I am the only one who noticed the GDI logo from Command & Conquer among the external clients mashup in that slideshow?

      • Justin says:

        Understood, thanks for the info.

  27. Christopher Hoffman says:

    1. I would suggest few soldiers are using the optic at -40 fahrenheit. The paper discloses that there could be a 4 MOA shift between -40 and +122 F.

    If using the optic in either of those extremes, then it should be zeroed in either cold or hot weather accordingly, which would reduce the amount of thermal shift to a negligible proportion.

    2. Parallax: If engaging at distances where parallax could be a factor, approximately centering the reticle in the viewer (rather than at a far edge) would effectively eliminate such effect.

    3. Co-witnessing with iron sights is ALWAYS a good idea with red-dot/holographic sights because it provides realtime knowledge of any discrepancy in point of aim.

    4. Whether a click od adjustment is EXACTLY .5 MOA or APPROXIMATELY .5 MOA is practically irrelevant, because NO ONE (in their right mind) would use those click to adjust point-of aim during an engagement.

    Such adjustments would only be made during a zeroing procedure where accurate target data could be assessed and accounted for.

    • SSD says:

      I would suggest that there will be even fewer Soldiers using EOTech sights at -40 F now.

    • davan says:

      your zero will shift with temperature going up or down, I smell deflection from criscogate…..

      • “Deflection from Criscogate”

        There is no “Criscogate” other than what a bunch of Interwebz experts have dreamed up to argue about this week.

        Further, are you actually suggesting that SOF Weapons Program Management Office at NSWC Crane has concocted this to deflect from FireClean Internet wars??

      • Yeah right- we all got Crane in on the scam too right? What a clown….

  28. Contractor says:

    The 55x series of Eotechs plain did not work for my old combat unit. We were forced to send a lot of guys back to COMPM4s, Elcans and Acogs who had theirs break. That or they simply got tired of the 8 hour shut off.

    I ran one on a PIP SAW and had some issues as well.

    Anecdotal evidence from the line really doesn’t cut the mustard though. Ask enough guys and you’ll get experience in redlining just about every piece of equipment ever issued.

    In any case, I hope L3 wakes up and fixes their product.

  29. Charlie Mac says:

    L-3 Communications stock is up…even with all this non-sense and whistleblower gunk. All you haters need to look through something other than an optic.

    • Charlie Mac says:

      Drones and intelligence will keep L-3 alive and well. This optic stuff is small taters, a step above their flashlight segment, and will be sold off if the crap hits the fan. The irony is that your short-sightedness cannot be offset by the optics you bash.

  30. Srgt. Hulka says:

    Really? -40 to 122 degrees? That’s 162 degree temperature swing. How many of you are going to experience conditions like that. I know I never will. This is much ado about nothing. Besides, there are probably hundreds o f thousands, maybe millions, of EOTechs out there, and they have problems with THREE of them? Really? I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.

    • SSD says:

      I guess wasn’t clear enough, nor apparently was the PMO who issued the SOUM.

      There isn’t a shift when you transition from -40 to 122 deg. There can be Shifts (plural) that begin at either one of those temps.

    • SSD says:

      Btw, Sergeant is abbreviated SGT.

      • Justin says:

        Lol, true. I suppose I’m just as much as dilletante as “srgt” Hulka (great movie, btw). I berated Larry earlier for his endorsements, and upon thinking about it, I had no business doing so. Who the hell am I? Just a peon with an Internet connection. Sometimes we just need to be tolerated.

        • SSD says:

          You can berate him if you want, I just found the tone of some random guy calling out someone else ridiculous. Btw, calling out a guy for supporting a brand that sponsors him is kinda dumb don’t you think? If he didn’t, I’d wonder what was going on.

          • MikeB. says:

            I don’t know if you mean me, however, I was not calling anyone out. That was not my intent.

  31. painless says:

    If you own Eotech shares i’d get out and get out quick, by the time the keyboard warriors and group thinkers get a hold of this Eotechs will be responsible for 911 and the fall of the USSR

    • TV-PressPass says:

      Wait, wasn’t the fall of the USSR a good thing? Personally I’d be more likely to buy stocks in a company that could claim responsibility for that breakup.

    • straps says:

      As was pointed out, L3 is a highly diversified company and optics isn’t the only thing they aren’t great at.

      Is ANYONE here for the stock tips?

    • JB says:

      L3 has an annual revenue of something like $5 Billion. But yeah, I am sure most of that comes from the sale of EOTechs…

      • Moose1am says:

        I think that they own Litton Industries or did at one time or vise verso and they make all kinds of things. Things like Nuclear Powered Attack Submarines. And who makes the Hollow Graphic Head Up Displays for the new F35 and F 22 jet fighters?

  32. ODG says:

    As a disclaimer you would never hear me say that Eotechs are better than Aim Points and I would adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks that. However that said I have used a wide variety of optics in combat and in training, and I will say that I do like the features of Eotechs. They give you a wide field of view, the ghost ring on the reticle makes it easier and faster to acquire under NODs and the 1 MOA dot gives you better accuracy at distance. Battery life does suck and I have experienced a boat load of problems with zeroing specifically under the “Approximately 0.5 MOA” category.” Always love it when I throw on 2 clicks and get a 4 MOA jump in POI. Hopefully Eotech/L3 will sort these flaws out. In the meantime Ill just keep a close eye on the two I have left that are currently working and when they start to shit the bed like previous ones I have owned I will swap them out. Great Info thanks for putting this out SSD!

  33. MilTester says:

    This comes at no surprise. You’re talking about a sight that’s had, what, 6 hardware revisions in the past? Are they on Revision G now? Also, the vastly inferior battery life and overheating issues with certain platforms and mounting options.

  34. Joe says:

    In a certain school house the SOP for zeroing M4A1’s with Eotechs was to just turn the Damn elevation and windage adjustershould until POI was POA. And to NEVER rely on the Eotech as it could, would ,and had failed guys. Sadly that was the only optic issued.

  35. Baldwin says:

    I own 3 Eotech’s, a VW and I use Fireclean…someone just shoot me.

    • TV-PressPass says:

      You should definitely buy a lottery ticket.

    • straps says:

      I’m keeping mine away from the dealership until the guvmint refuses to renew my registration pending certification of a software update. My DMV can’t even send me the right commemorative license plates, I’m thinking the outlaw code on my chip is safe. Our cars run BETTER than “street legal,” how is that a problem?

      And I’m sure the car runs at least as well as your Fireclean-lubed guns.

      Far as the EOTechs, at least now you know not to buy a 4th.

  36. Snakeman says:

    Damn, I run an EOtech 553 on my Sig 556, and just bought a brand new 553, and a XPS2. $1000.00 worth of new gear that is now going to be worthless.
    I love their field of view, and their reticle . I even have on on my rimfire rifle. The rimfire XPS2
    So I’ll now start looking a AT02 for a magnified optic’s, and the new MRO. Sorry guys, but I never could get used to the Aimpoint tunnel vision
    I never knew the POI shift I experienced was caused by the sight. I always blamed it on me. So did a instructor in a carbine class I took.

    • Darrel says:

      I don’t know what you’re upset about. If you like them, what does it matter? Use what you like, don’t let some SOCOM SOUM dictate what you use on your rifles. Obviously you are not someone who is issued these HWSs, and more than likely you will never use them to the extent that a warfighter would, so what does it matter?

      You can’t look at something as a waste of money unless you are buying them for bragging rights or to resell them. If you like them, you like them. Just re zero and deal with it.

  37. Iceman says:

    Serious question here and will expose my lack of understanding on optics. Larry is prob the best person to answer.

    By saying 1/2 Moa adjustment or “approx” 1/2 Moa per click etc- would this take into account differences in mounting height over bore, muzzle velocities etc of different guns, or is 1/2 Moa adjustment of the reticle the same.

    Point being if the adjustment mech of the original Eotech in the original mount was “timed” to be 1/2 Moa, and changes were later made to the mount etc, with no change being made to the adjustment ratio, could this account for these adjustments now being “approximately” 1/2 Moa?

  38. Don White says:

    Interesting article and interesting comments. I’ve had a 512 for a bunch of years, and can’t even remember which year I bought it. Impact and aim are matched to flip up hard sights. The rifle is banged around in cars and in the brush that I am in so much looking for illegal aliens smuggling people and drugs. I check the accuracy periodically, and haven’t had an issue in all of that time. It’s beat to shit, but still works, and still will hit steel silhouettes at 300 meters and under. I don’t worry about batteries, just change them once a year. I turn it on when I start my walks through the south Texas brush, check it periodically as the day progresses, and turn it off when I finish my shift. It’s always there. I have friends that use the ACOG, more power to them. I like my 512 and will always have an Eotech. It’s probably more accurate than I am, and maybe that’s why I don’t have an issue with it. Temp range on any given day is probably 70 to 105 or so.

    • SSD says:

      I’ve read some comments online about pre and post L3 quality. Yours sounds old enough to be a pre-L3 version.

      • BAP45 says:

        Makes one wonder if the defects can be traced to some cost cutting manufacturing process. If there are Pre/Post ’64 Winchesters maybe people will now talk about Pre/Post EOtechs.

      • Moose1am says:

        The pre L3 problems where with the battery compartment orientation being parallel with the rifle barrel and the shock of shooting making the battery contacts fail. This was remedied when they started to mount the batterys perpendicular to the rifle barrel. This prevented the batteries inside the battery compartment from shifting around so much when one was shooting the gun due to the recoil of the gun.

        The new problem is temperature related and it applies to the initial zero of the EOTech HWS and the parallax errors caused by changing temperature extremes.

        Remember we are talking about changes in temperature from -40 deg F to =120 deg F. That’s a huge 160 deg shift in temperature. Now this may happen in the field during long combat tours in such places as Iraq or even in the Arctic regions. If you go from the hot summer desert to the cold winter regions then change the sights zero after the sights are acclimated to the current temperatures.

        • Mark m says:

          Well not exactly but you rise a fair point- the change is from a standard 73 degree day towards either of those extremes and we don’t know if the change is linear. So they are talking about a smaller, though still extreme shift

  39. Robert Brooks says:

    Not to contradict anything said by anyone else. I’ve owned my 517 since 2009 and am very happy with it. I turn it off when I’m done shooting. I change batteries(123’s) once a year to be sure. The only weather related problems were due to the 123’s performance in extreme cold. Keep an extra set in my shirt pocket, and swap them in when the active set start to fade. I also learned to adjust my sight once in the spring when it goes from cold to warm, and again in the late fall when it goes from warm to cold. 3-4 inches is about right. It got weird once about 2 years ago. I sent it back and they fixed it. haven’t had any problems since. Use t he bottom of the ring for point-blank to 25yds, the dot for 50-300 yds. Real simple. My 5x magnifier flips in for this and further. For my intended use, I feel that I can trust my stake my life on my equipment. Everything has it’s own point of failure. You just have to know it’s limitations.

  40. Chris N says:

    The fluctuations are more often caused by powder temperature from my experience in the Midwest. When you start talking about anywhere from 200-400fps change in the velocity of a round from what it was at zero you will see change. More and more as distance increases.

  41. Moose1am says:

    Since the HWS on the EOTechs are modeled after the Hallow Graphic Weapons System or Heads Up Displays on our modern Fighter Jets do you all think that maybe Crane should check to make sure these weapon sights are functioning properly at 30K where the air temperature are much lower or at ground zero in Iraq where the air temperature in the summer time can get extremely hot? Something to think about when shooting off a million dollar missile and using a Hollow Graphic Weapons Sight to aim the missile.

    I really do hope that L3 system ( makers of the EOTech HWS) can fix this problem. I’m wondering if the materials ( metal) used to move the Hollow Graphic Image around inside the EOTech HWS is expanding and contracting due to the changes in temperature of the metals. Maybe a different type of metal could be used that has better properties and will expand and come back to the same shape as before when heated and cooled. This is definitely temperature related and we all know that if you heat metal it expands as does other molecules.

    But 4 MOA at 25 ft is not more than an inch or so. No real big deal for Close Quarter Combat. Only when you use the G33 magnifier and try to shoot at longer ranges will this be a big problem. The HWS is best used for CQC situations.

  42. SHIM says:

    We have had a few Trijicon MRO’s through our shop. Nice looking, simple to use, bigger objective is cool. What is not nice is the lack of support for aftermarket mounts (think old school phone chargers vs. current standards), and if you are not careful the contacts that hold the battery in place will easily break off. Not a big deal if you loose one or two, it will still work. However, if this continues game over. Would have loved to sell all the Aimpoint style QD mounts we have in stock (since the MRO was labeled the ‘Aimpoint Killer’) But no, some brilliant design engineer has to make this sight uniquely Trijicon and nothing fits. Rant complete.

  43. BW says:

    First off, no shit LAV uses Aimpoint – I would too if they paid me to use and endorse them. He can bash EO all he wants, but fact is, dude retired in 2003…before Rev F Eotechs, and before the XPS/EXPS series’s even hit market. So his “experience” with EO should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Second, look at the ACTUAL “issues” EOs reportedly have. Under -20 and over 120F. How many of us here are EVER going to be using an EOtech outside in those conditions, much less be outside ourselves in those conditions? I live in the Rockies and will never see either of those extremes and you can bet your ass I won’t be outside in them. Unless you’re active duty in A Stan or Iraq, neither will you.

  44. John Smith says:

    I was just thinking of those weaver drills in 120 deg weather…. no one should even be close even at a 4 MOA error but ……