Panteao Productions has issued a statement to explain their involvement in NDGate, which swept social media over the weekend. Since the incident seems to have started with them, it seems appropriate that we share their statement.
But first, let’s catch everyone up who missed out. It all began Thursday evening when video surfaced showing tactical trainer Travis Haley appearing to have a negligent discharge of an AK rifle he was using for demonstration purposes. According to Panteao’s statement, they did not authorize the release of the video so they removed it from public access on YouTube, but by that time, the video clip was in the wild. Like we’ve said so many times, you can’t take the internet back. We posted an article which linked to an edited version of the video. Soon, that video was hit with a copyright claim by Panteao and was taken down. At that point, we figured they were in damage control mode and were playing whack-a-mole so there was no point in having an article up that relied on a missing video. Instead, we removed our article, with a decision to reengage once things settled down. However, the majority of the comments in our post were quite positive. They understood that NDs happen and that it was a valuable teaching tool.
For social media, comedy is the mother of invention, and over the weekend, dozens of remixes of the video appeared on Facebook and Instagram. Some were more amusing that others.
Eventually, Travis Haley chose to comment on the developing situation. Remember, that positive attitude that saw the situation as a teaching tool? Well, apparently Haley didn’t. Instead, he denied it had happened and claimed that Panteao was out to slander him. Granted, this whole situation would have been avoided had the video not made its way into the wild, but Haley’s response unfortunately had the effect of throwing gasoline on a fire. There’s a video below. When you finish reading this, make sure you watch the whole thing.
Some of Haley’s animosity toward Panteao may stem from this link on Panteao’s site: panteao.com/discontinued-video-titles. This move by Panteao was in response to Haley’s statement not long before on Facebook that the videos he had created while at Magpul Dynamics were no longer valid and that his fans should no longer purchase them. His position was that he had moved on to newer techniques. Magpul fans, and apparently Paneao Productions, took it as sour grapes. Perhaps concerned that he might eventually do the same to them, Panteao seems to have taken preemptive action. As you can see, this situation has been brewing for some time.
Now, on to Panteao’s statement (and accompanying video) on the situation:
February 7, 2016
This will be the first and last time we comment publicly on this incident. Given the firestorm surrounding the video which was recently released without our authorization, we felt it necessary to publicly state our position regarding the matter:
The relationship between Panteao Productions and Travis Haley ended over a year ago because of a disagreement over whether or not training should have an expiration date. Much to the disappointment of those who primarily use the internet to create and feed off of other people’s drama, and despite our past differences in opinion, we have nothing but respect for Travis’ accomplishments, and wish him the best in his future endeavors.
The video in question was not posted by Panteao for public consumption, and more importantly, was never intended to be seen externally. It was unlisted on our YouTube Channel, and was designated for in-house training purposes. It was intended to be a humorous reminder shared with crew members and collaborating instructors of what we don’t want to have happen during filming. It had been forgotten about until the link was shared publicly by one of the instructors we had been working with up until this point. At this time we are still unsure why they (the other instructor) felt the need to share the link publicly, regardless, once we became aware of the developing situation we deleted the video from our YouTube channel and had it removed wherever we came across it. There was nothing derogatory/defamatory intended by the video, or its description.
Anyone that has spent any serious amount of time doing this at the professional level knows that NO ONE IS ABOVE MAKING A MISTAKE. We have multiple layers of safety in place to prevent them, but at the end of the day there is absolutely nothing we are able to do that can entirely remove the human element from the equation. We decided to utilize the video as a tool to show our crew members that no matter someone’s level of past experience, background, or accomplishment that the possibility for an accident always exists. It served as a reminder to us; always wear eyes and ears on set, confirm the condition of any firearms the talent may be using to demonstrate techniques with, and to watch our position in relation to the muzzle whether or not a segment was intended to be live fired. Unfortunately individuals from the Haley Strategic camp have started spreading inaccurate statements about how the video was published intentionally to hurt Travis and that it was not a Negligent Discharge in the first place.
It is disheartening that Travis has failed to acknowledge what took place. We don’t care to speculate why someone with his abilities and background feels the need to deny their own fallibility, common to all of us, so vehemently. He handled the situation as best as anyone could at the time and pressed on during filming, as one would expect from a professional. Internally, we saw the opportunity the video represented for us, and utilized it to illustrate things that WE could do better on set.
The big question now is “was this really a negligent discharge?” or something staged or edited to look like one. The scene in question was not intended to be live fired, thus none of the crew had their hearing protection on, neither did Travis. It was strictly a demo of different Russian techniques. There were MULTIPLE individuals standing in close proximity to Travis, any of whom who would have reminded him to put his ears on if live fire was intended. In the crystal clear light of hindsight, one of the errors that occurred was having a hot gun for this particular scene. As the ones ultimately responsible for the safety of the production, that particular error falls on us, and it was one of the many lessons we took away from the incident. When the rifle discharged into the side berm, ears were ringing and as is common in these situations, everyone took a moment to look at each other and inspect for new holes. Travis summed it up best in the video “That didn’t work.”
So let’s talk about what works:
1. All Guns Are Always Loaded.
2. Never Let The Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy.
3. Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger (And Out Of The Trigger Guard) Until Your Sights Are On
Target.
4. Be Sure Of Your Target.
Most importantly, do not allow yourself to become complacent. Familiarity breeds contempt, and contempt breeds complacency. In this business, complacency kills. We are saddened that this has become such a public incident, but since the cat is out of the bag, let’s all utilize it for the learning tool it is. We are all human, we all make mistakes, and there is nothing wrong in acknowledging that.
If you have any doubts as to what happened, watch the whole uncut sequence. At the end of the clip we’ve also included two additional references to the incident that Travis made later that same day during shooting. As we have maintained throughout this entire incident, we have nothing but respect for Travis and his past accomplishments, and we wish him the best. However, we are not able to condone someone attempting to rewrite their personal history to save themselves a little embarrassment, especially when in doing so our own reputation and professionalism is called into question. Let’s all spend our energy on more productive endeavors, and move on from this incident having learned an important lesson.
Fernando Coelho
President/CEO
Panteao Productions, LLC
Tags: Panteao Productions, Travis Haley
I am going to grab a coke and some popcorn… this is going to be a long week for SSD!!!
Hopefully not. That was a lot of words over an ND. I’m sure the airsoft crowd is heartbroken. First Costa in Japan, now this!
That Rifle Dynamics AK sure is pretty, though.
*Sits back and pretends not to watch hilarity ensue*
Agreed.
I love SSD and check the page out twice a day. Things tend to get crazy on this blog over the smallest things.
I am pleasantly surprised that things haven’t gone crazy over this.
I’m amazed this is even a thing.
We sure are, distraught. I wasn’t this sad when my pet hamster died and I loved that little guy with all my heart.
This is what happens when we don’t wear our reflective belts.
Now go outside and smoke yourselves until Travis has learned from his mistake.
ND? All he had to do was yell the 3-Ds and start engaging the “enemy”. ND becomes react to contact. They must have run away…
It seems both parties are at fault. Panteao for allowing this video to get out thru one of their instructors (whether they gave permission or not) and for Haley for not owning up to his own mistake. If the video was meant be an in-house training tool, then that’s where it should have remained.
As usual, the Internet take things and makes them worse, if for no other reason then to watch the world burn.
I agree.
1. Why was this on a YouTube channel in any form or fashion to begin with? A media publishing house like Panteao should no better. End of story on that issue.
2. I don’t by the “demo” story at all. If he was trying to demo something like that he wouldn’t have uttered the “better not put that on film” line at the end. There is no way in my mind that he was simply upset about the lack of ear pro. He messed up and knows it.
Here’s the weird thing. To them they made it more important that no one was wear ear pros. Not the fact that he shot a round with a projectile flying out with the ability to kill someone. Every time you pull the trigger you have a persons life on the the other end. So screw the ear pro. Let’s talk about the ND.
So was he using a Skimmer trigger in the AK?
Even monkeys fall out of trees.
Cheese is not mango.
That excerpt from what appears to be Facebook appears to be taken out of context. Travis seems to be addressing two third parties that aren’t in the screenshot. I don’t participate in Facebook, but it might clear things up in regards to his statement to have the whole conversation.
Out of context? It doesn’t matter whom he said it to. It’s what he said and it’s very clear.
It’s not very clear to me then. He’s addressing someone named Neil Batelli. That screenshot doesn’t show Neil’s comment or question. He very well could have been answering a series of questions that makes that statement alone seem a little weird. So, I would like to know how the whole conversation went, not just a little part of it. If it’s very clear to you then it’s very clear to you.
Oh its in context. I would know. It’s my screan shot.
Who’s the girl? 😉
This was on my wall. Neil said that he couldn’t see the video and asked for a brief summary of what it was.
Cool. Thanks for clarifying.
Oh the drama
This has gone “full-retard” . Wow, way too much “sand in the vagina” for me.
Screw’em both……
Best reply yet.
Human memory is extremely fallible. ‘Eye witness’ testimonies are great evidence of this. I’m sure Travis misremembered what happened that day. Unfortunately, video does not forget, and Panteao felt the need to make him look foolish in revenge. It’s a shame.
Yeah, how dare they use facts to counter Travis Haley’s lies.
Panteao Productions didn’t make Travis Haley look foolish. He did that all to himself.
Never trained with Travis, but I have a lot of respect for him, and I find myself highly disappointed in how he handled this. This was a fantastic opportunity to use his own mistake as a teaching opportunity AND to still come out smelling like roses. Instead, it appears he chose to deny he made any mistake other than forgetting to put on his earpro. Even if we assume what he says is true…the way to have handled this was to say “I’m a professional, even professionals made mistakes, because we are human, and humans are fallable. Let this be a lesson to everyone…” You’ll still have the usual trolls who will want to try and tear you down, but the vast majority of people will most likely react positively to admitting wrong and handling it with some grace. My 2 cents anyway.
A very wise man once told me that there are two kinds of gun owners. Those who have had NDs and those who will.
And that’s why i’m extra paranoid about gun safety.
That’s the only attitude to have.
Straight up. If you haven’t had an ND or two, you will.
I watched a former member of a very famous sf group, straight off a contract deployment have an ND. I don’t care who you are. It happens.
For me… I had one with that stupid magpul BAD lever… Never again. The bolt is not meant to be released with the trigger finger mostly inside the trigger guard.
Could not agree more on that BAD lever.
Cant even remember how many times I closed the bolt when I did not want to because I bumped the thing with my finger OUT of the trigger guard. All of those times were on a empty rifle (no mag) but I did not once want to close it when it happened, making me re-open the bolt.
BAD Lever is gone.
I never had a problem with the BAD Lever. I used it extensively on issued and personal rifles without issue. I only stopped using it because after switching it back and forth between rifles the metal wore down enough to be very loose when mounted on the bolt catch. Magpul sent me a new one but I haven’t used it since.
I was 10 years old sitting on a log with a .22 next to my grandpa who was deer hunting when I had my ND. Playing with the safety, checking to see if it worked. It did. Then it was taken off, and, it didn’t.
The difference is that I didn’t have such an ego that I didn’t admit to it.
Well said, Whit.
I’ve actually had two in my 35 years of shooting. One was a Broomhandle Mauser with a safety that was stuck. I was pushing so hard on the safety, and squeezing so hard on the grip, that I didn’t realized I was squeezing the trigger. When the safety came off, BAM. Fortunately, the pistol was pointed downrange.
The second was with a rifle that belonged to a Deputy that was a sniper. His rifle had a trigger pull that was measured in very small ounces, not pounds (IMHO, WAY too light.) While getting set, I accidentally brushed the trigger with my finger, and BAM. Again, the rifle was pointed downrange.
Both of them i’ve learned from and haven’t repeated them.
The fact that a piece of video from a set is allowed to be released to someone outside of the film production say’s volumes about the integrity and honesty of the production company.
I own several Panteao Production videos including the newest two from Pat McNamara ( Pistol and carbine DVD’s.) If they are going to release anything that the instructor is not happy with or finds offensive or misleading and that person asks that that film not be used and they go back and dig up video and post it or allow others to post it online later then who will trust them in the future?
True warriors don’t circle like sharks and devour their own and they certainly don’t get enjoyment from reading drama online. It shows lack of respect and a media circus mentality that some love to tune in for.
I would never make a training video with Panteao Productions if they can’t properly secure their material or act professionally in the light of day and when the sun goes down.
I don’t care one way or another what happened with TH and don’t gain pleasure from seeing it. It was released for all to see for a reason and the question needs to be asked why did they post it and what were their motives.
Keep it classy people.
^^^ Excellent Take Away ^^^
Agreed.
Excellent point.
Lisa,
What does this really mean???
“True warriors don’t circle like sharks and devour their own”
Where is that written? Have you ever been in the military? Had a ND like that happened when I was in military, the “warrior” that had the ND would be the pun of many jokes until it got boring or the next “warrior” made a mistake. That is the way of the “warrior” life in my experience.
Do you know the full details of how this got leaked? If so let us know if not you should read what you wrote and not create more drama.
I have never trained with Travis and up to this point I had much respect for what he has done.
That said looking at the responses from both parties, I have to give it to Panteao for “staying classy”.
Travis had an opportunity at a public level to “Stay Classy” and use this to show us that his point in the video was valid and that it can happen to anyone including a pro like him. His response shows he blew that opportunity.
Larry is so on point! He would have been RFS’d, and manifested on the first Black Chinook for an ND, plus failing to take ownership of his actions, etc! I don’t know the guy, pretty sad this has happened.
Agree 100%.
Panteao’s story is total bullshit. No one posts a video of specifically that incident, anywhere near YouTube—the world’s largest online public video distribution system—if they have any kind of common sense. Come on.
God only knows what they have on their “secret servers” of all the other trainers they have videos with.
Hope they all remain on good terms with the CEO over there.
Panteo owns it, they can do whatever they want with it. They could have included that in a blooper reel if they wanted and Travis would not have any say in the matter, and they definitely have every right to use the footage as internal training material. Like Panteo said in their respones, Travis was the…talent. He was doing a job, just like any other actor making movies.
Just curious, as I saw the video on Instagram… but who leaked it?
Somebody who seems not being with them anymore.
Given that he seems to be criticising the two methods he was describing I thought the discharge of the rifle rather proved his point. Given the proclivity for the bloopers on the Magpul videos I really can’t understand why he got so upset about the whole thing.
I agree. It really drove home the danger of indexing the trigger guard through the trigger well. I wish for everyone’s safety he’d done so after clearing the rifle, but lesson learned for me.
Seriously. He was demonstrating methods that he thought were unsafe and happened to have an ND in the process. Pretty clear demonstration that they are terrible methods. Its too bad the rifle was loaded. That along with not immediately acknowledging the ND are the only things I think he did wrong. We all make mistakes though, even the best out there will slip up. We are human after all.
I think it was good that the rifle was loaded and went off otherwise we would not have seen how dangerous the techniques were. Without one up the spout there would have been no effect.
He’s lucky no one was injured or killed. I’m not sure why that was a good thing to you… I’m hoping this is internet sarcasm.
Given the context of what he was trying to demonstrate, it’s entirely possible that Haley’s response was true; that he simply forgot to put on ear pro while showing how you could have an ND with that method. And it’d make sense to call it an ND later since that’s what he was showing.
I’m internet famous!
I took Haley’s carbine and pistol course a few years back. He was very professional, full of knowledge, very down to earth but most importantly safe. There was 2 other fellow Marines attending the course with me and along with Brannon LeBouef as the A-Instructor we Leathernecks got along well. I can’t stand the childish bickering that seems to happen alot in the gun industry, seriously focus this energy and anger towards the anti gun assholes, not on each other. Having said that, I am surprised to see how Haley responded to this situation. I just watched the video, and that was definitely an ND and that should have been included in the official released videos as a good teaching tool. Shit, I ND’ed before too, at least in a safe direction, and I consider myself to be a decent shooter. It can happen to anyone.
I still have lots of respect for Travis as he’s one of the few trainers I can respect any hopefully we can all learn something from all this BS.
This is a great example of how Internet pissing matches can end up hurting both sides.
Looks to me like Panteao is trying to push the release off on an unnamed instructor. I’d question why it was ever uploaded in the first place, as it seems to me like they could just keep it on their own computers if they’re using it solely internally. But assuming they had a reason to keep it there, they’re still blaming an unnamed related party, who they apparently haven’t spoken with yet. It doesn’t look good on them that they won’t name the person or explain if they plan to keep a relationship with them.
Mr. Haley (or the people working for him) did not respond well. It’s pretty clear what happened from the uncut video. It proved his point about keeping the finger on the trigger guard with the gun on safe. But it looks from the screenshots like he’s saying it was all intentional when the new footage has him referring to it as an ND right after it happened.
Bad situation all around.
Typically its the “Strategic Partner”, Jon Chang, who is the one who is extremely rude to media. I have an SF friend who dropped by the Haley Strategic showroom in Scottsdale. He said the staff were EXTREMELY haughty and rude. Attitude reflects leadership. The Haley star seems to be falling. I would be very leery to record anything with Panteao. Seems they cannot control their content.
Not only did they not control their content. One has to wonder if it wasn’t an intentional leak done out of spite….
Can’t speak to the intent of the individual who released the video into the wild, but it’s more than obvious that Panteao didn’t do this on purpose.
As far releasing it. I am unsure of any contractual obligations between Panteao and their trainers. For everyone obsessed with that aspect of this situation, that is what you should be asking. Was there anything that prevented them from releasing it, or than it was a blooper? If there was, then they should have to deal with the consequences of it. If there isn’t any restriction on the release of the content, then it’s time to move on.
That’s too bad, I had a good experience when I stopped by their store.
I don’t recall the name of the guy who I spoke with, but he patiently answered all of my questions, even about a product that was out of stock.
I’m not sure why you brought Jon Chang up, but I’ll let you in on a couple of things. Jon Chang doesn’t generally talk to the media, perhaps that’s what you consider rude. Additionally, although Jon Chang was a founding partner in HSP, he left several months ago to concentrate on some other projects like “Black Powder, Red Earth.” He has nothing to do with this current situation.
Interesting. I work on the Media side of the industry, and Jon was very rude to my editors. HSP could have handled it better. Regardless I still have an immense respect for Travis Haley.
So we have two of the three parties involved. Who was the instructor who posted it and why does that individual get a pass here in internet justice league?
Just goes to show: even the best in the business make mistakes sometimes. People aren’t perfect, and even Haley is fallible (though very, very rarely). I do get a little frustrated at how many people jump on any excuse to point and laugh at someone that they will never be half as good as in two lifetimes. People are always quick to point out others’ mistakes (especially when they are jealous/intimidated by their superior skill and talent).
Didn’t he later on in the video say something to the effect of “nothings gone right since that ND”.
I don’t care either way, shit happens in training, but integrity means more to me. I was always raised on, there are those who have had one, and those who will. A simple “I fucked up” works for me, but that’s just a standard in the SOF community.
^^^ This.
Jon, you’ve got this summed up the best.
I originally thought about wading into the fray to highlight the mountain of logical fallacies in one of the more egregious ‘this is only Pantaeo’s fault’ posts. Still may.
Both parties had integrity, and both made mistakes. Mistakes inevitably happen, and you have to admit and atone for them. Now only one party has integrity, until actions dictate differently.
So he doesn’t shit gold or piss excellence.
100 attaboys get destroyed with one “Aw shit”
Law of the jungle, man. Law of the jungle.
Larry Vickers called Arfcom a bunch of assclowns and they called him fat.
Forgetting full well he was part of a daring Delta rescue and had done more in 20+ years than dipshits typing angrily from their Grooming and Haberdashery forums.
Check their GD thread. Usually something about “Guyz, im still a virgin at 43…”
All the Zoolander mess up in this gun community
I remember that, the fat medically retired SF guy (never took his classes but still respect him) struck a nerve with the fat neckbeards with an AR15 that never served a day in their lives but act like SMEs on all things military and guns.
There’s some good info on ARFCOM and it’s a great place to sell stuff but their GD, wtf. A bunch of racist mouth breathing assholes that hate anything not American. And they seem to relish in the chidish BS like the Fireclean and Costa “controversies”
Someone needs to give them a key piece of advice: “Ask not what your butthurt can do for you, but what you can do for your butthurt.”
Seek and accept responsibility. Both sides shit the bed on this one. Panteo for having the video on the net and not a company intranet and Travis for not owning up to it.
We all fuck up and its what we learn from those screw ups that makes us better.
I just wanted to add this to my previous comment. If Panteao is sticking to their side of the story then why … WHY do they not have someone on set watching for safety of all involved?
Why didn’t anyone watching this being filmed realize that TH was holding a loaded firearm and the safety was off?
We have seen mistakes take the life of Brandon Lee and others on the sets of movie productions so why, considering they are filming with loaded firearms and the instructors are under stress and outside influences would they not have someone on the set / range making sure everyone is safe?
This is actually a very serious breach in basic safety 101 for the production company and everyone involved should be sat down and retrained.
Does Panteao Productions rely on the instructors being filmed to be the only person watching out for mishaps on set?
Agreed.
From the new video it looks like the set was good to go. the rifle is pointed away from everyone (back side shot) and on a range. In fact the rifle is pointed at a target (generally). We dont know if he was going to shoot later in that segment so having a loaded rifle might have been on purpose.
Lisa,
I am not ex-military, nor am I a weapons expert. My only qualifications are that I am from Kentucky, and we are mostly born holding a rifle (Which is hell on our mothers), and that I spend a great deal of my spare time launching projectiles at high speeds from various weapon platforms. However, even though I am not a Delta Force Recon Scout Sniper Navy SEAL Para-Rescue Airborne Ranger Super Soldier Firearms Instructor, I know that regardless of how many people that are with me specifically to ensure my weapon is safe, it is MY job to do a weapon-check when handed a firearm. The final responsibility for ensuring a firearm is not hot resides with the person holding it. End of story. And yes, I have had ND’s. I learned from them. I have watched members of the SF community at Fort Campbell, Kentucky have ND’s, and they are some of the most highly-trained warriors on the planet. The difference between myself and the above-mentioned SF warriors and what happened on that video? All of us immediately took responsibility for our ND (after ensuring no one was injured in any way), took the flak from our range buddies over it, and learned from it. I have absolutely nothing but respect for Travis Haley, but this was very obviously a ND, and he should have owned it and used it to teach. That’s what he does, right? So this was a perfect opportunity to do so. To say it was the range master or on-set safety coordinator’s fault is not logical, since they were not the person holding the rifle when it was discharged. How long would it have taken Travis to do a weapon check to see if he was holding a hot firearm? Just my long-winded two cents.
I’m wondering, how it’s ever possible to “demonstrate Russian techniques” with non-standard safety lever, having that large tab on its middle portion, which actually prevents usage of the most recommended technique: having your finger on receiver, pointing up a bit (touching the safety lever)?
Seems like he was demonstrating a sketchy approach to trigger-finger placement, and showed its potentially fatal flaw. Different than NDing while transitioning or moving or taking about how cool you are (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0).
This highlights all the issues with things called “weapons training videos.” First, the petty egos of LOTS of the people involved. Seriously, LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!. Secondly, the narrative of the article mentions “outdated” concepts in videos removed from public access. This is one reason to own the DVD, or to maybe possibly do stream captures. Tenured shooters–I mean firearms enthusiasts–can benefit from watching TTP evolve. Third, that approach he was demonstrating–if it has a justifiable application ANYWHERE–is probably not appropriate for people whose best option for weapons training is internet video. And he showed why. Yet he demonstrated it on a weapon he hadn’t cleared.
Live by social media…die by social media.
All parties need a lesson in discreet professionalism and owning up to fuck-ups. NDs happen…leaks happen…but stop throwing off blame. Travis should own this. He refers to the incident as an “ND” at least twice in the video, but now it was a training oops over ear-pro? Sure.
And the unnamed instructor that *happened* to release the video to the world? Come on…I’m guessing it, too, was just an oops?
This whole SME to internet star shit is quite played out.
Upon seeing this video, Suarez immediately hired Haley to be his #1 controversial trainer.
I’ve trained with Travis, he’s pretty progressive in his training. If he said something about not buying Magpul training DVDs because they’re outdated, that’s just his mindset. Panteo looking to squeeze every cent out of product(rightfully so, they’re doing this to make $$$), seems to have gotten a little butthurt on his stance. The Haley videos were scrapped, then they decided YouTube was a good place to house an “internal training video”. Said video was leaked by some “unnamed instructor”, not named to prevent them losing money on other content. Well played Panteo. But yeah, it was clearly a ND while demonstrating less than optimum technique. It happens to everyone sooner or later, nobody was hurt fortunately. I honestly don’t see the draw to training videos, I’ve always seemed out ACTUAL training. YMMV
Instructional material does go stale. Too many people don’t update lesson plans or training aids. Even if there isn’t a substantive change, it needs to be re-assessed.
Hell, I redo my slides and stuff when the cars start to look old.
Read this…
http://firelancemedia.com/what-we-can-learn-from-panteaos-screw-up/
That quote from Jacques is spot-on. If online “gun guys” gave a shit half has hard as they hated the world would be a btter place.
Cripes! The drama! Don’t know if I can take it…
I’ve been watching this unfold all day, here as well as elsewhere on the web. Most of you have completely missed the point.
It doesn’t matter who leaked the video. They didn’t have the ND; Travis Haley did. Worse yet the ND itself doesn’t even matter. When Travis Haley was given an opportunity to do the right thing, he didn’t. He could have manned up and admitted to the mistake and moved on. But he chose not to. Instead, he denied it had happened. He lied to us. Now, we know he lied because the camera captured him not only having the ND but then repeatedly referencing it soon afterward.
This is about Travis Haley being a liar. Everything else is just a sideshow.
Concentrate on the lie.
This.
It is about integrity, and being able to trust someone.
If they cant be honest when something is on VIDEO, how can you trust what they are teaching you,as something to trust your life to or with?
All he had to so was say “I fucked up.” or “See how easy it is to have a AD/ND?”
But he didn’t.
I think YOU’VE missed the point. What do you want to do? Send out the angry mob with pitchforks and torches? How about we tar and feather him? THE LIES!!!
Let’s just say everyone follows your advice and concentrates on the lie. Let’s just say. Then what? Clearly he needs to be punished. I think he should have his eyelids pinned back A Clockwork Orange style and forced to watch every episode of Panteao TV on YouTube. The monologues are not only cringe worthy with the scripted elbow poking excuses for jokes, but each 30 minute episode is easily 20 minutes worth of jump cut monologues in front of the same boring tree line. If anything we should concentrate on how ass their video series is.
That’s assuming it was actually Haley and not someone who works for him doing social media work posting on his accounts.
Haley knew what happened. If they had that much of the video Haley had to know they could have ALL the video. He had to know they could post the whole thing if they wanted to. Those aren’t things someone posting on his behalf would necessarily know.
So one of two things happened:
1) Haley posted a lie when he should have known he’d get caught. It’s also possible he misremembered but that seems pretty unlikely.
2) Someone posting as him who didn’t know the whole story and was eager to start damage control posted a plausible version of events based on the limited information they had from the shorter clip that was released.
I’d also disagree that that’s all this is about. Panteao’s handling of the video was dumb. We also have the issue of the instructor that leaked the video whom Panteao refuses to name. You can’t argue that they’re fully in the right here.
I’m going to go ahead and wade in on this. It doesn’t matter if Travis Haley posted that or an employee. It was his name. He owns this. That’s why it’s so important to know who has access to your accounts, and what they are saying. If it was “hacked” we would have heard about it by now.
Or, for that matter, if it was an intern or publicist who published the denial in his name. If that were the case I’d think that he would have already come out and retracted/refuted/denied the comment saying that it wasn’t him and fess up to the ND.
Yes he’s ultimately responsible for what’s posted under his name. But Im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt before I’d say that he, personally, is a liar. That’s solely because he’d have been crazy to lie knowing they have proof.
Either way, as always, I appreciate the coverage, SSD. Be interesting to see if we hear more from Haley or if the mystery instructor’s name gets leaked.
I think the perspective here is that no matter what happens in today’s media age bad publicity is just as effective as good publicity and in this case can you imagine how many people have visited his website looked up his name etc. it’s only going to increase his visibility and web presence. Either way he has energized another great conversation on SSD. Love him or hate him he’s getting exactly what he wants, Everyone talking about him or his techniques.
I don’t think anyone wants “bad” publicity.
ND’d once in a manipulation demonstration with the rifle pointed in a safe direction in good safety practice.
Literally nothing.
if anything this is a demonstration of doing things right, this is why we have multiple layers of safety.
Seeing as I know nothing of this industry, wouldn’t the material belong to panteo and therefore they can do with it as they please? I do not know the arrangements thy had as far as is Haley working for panteo or is panteo working for Haley? The part of the footage being scrubbed I think is a pipe dream. It happened on camera therefore it exists for eternity, that’s the risk you take being a video personality. Isn’t that what we tell our kids about dick pics and selfies? We can argue about the professionalism side all we want and both sides are obviously guilty here, but why does one HAVE to be more wrong that the other? Panteo did some low bro shit by releasing it, or leaving it in the kitchen counter and being like “oh….you saw that? Whoops” and Haley did some shady shit by lying and acting like the mule on family guy (link below). Now this is all solely based on SSD and social media accounts of what’s going on. What would be awesome is to have a formal “this is what happened” from both sides and leave it be at that. So can we get back to 9mm vs 45, or 1911 vs glock, or we haven’t had a good “you don’t deserve that patch/title” post in a while
http://youtu.be/Cg_8knBHEyw
I am no Special Forces. I am not a Secret Squirrel.
But if Panteao Productions plays this fast and loose with film content it makes me wonder what the security is of the client records.
Posting an unlisted youtube video and then THINKING IT IS SECURE AND WON’T BE FOUND, is pants on head retarded.
Either that it or was deliberate and petty. Regardless, I would not want to have my name, address, financial information, or likeness by being filmed in their control.
On the Travis Side, he bitched out. He had an opportunity to be a Leader, eat his humble pie, take responsibility, and be the better man. Instead he chose the route of damage control and CYA.
I am disappointed in both parties.
Are you a current or former Panteao Productions customer? What about Travis Haley? A student? Have you purchased his products?
I’ll comment on this strictly as a consumer, a consumer of guns, ammo, gear, training and…information.
I’m disappointed in Panteao. The idea that the release of the video was not your fault is not believable. If it was done by an unnamed instructor you knew or should have known it was vulnerable. Don’t hide behind anonymity, name names or get off that horse. It appears to be somewhat lame. (Heh heh. Lame. I’m such a halfwit) A video with such potentially horribly embarrassing content should have been better protected. Please do try and convince me that no one in your company thought about how such a release would be taken both by Travis and the general gun community. Why that one and no others? You failed on a basic duty. Then you call out Travis for not owning up to his mistake but I have yet to see you do any better. A simple ‘It’s on us. We screwed up and here’s how we’re going to make sure it never happens again’ along with an apology to Travis would go a long way toward defusing this craptacular mess you are so clearly a responsible party to. You have been bad monkeys and trying to convince us you have taken the High Road clearly isn’t working. The winged thing only worked for the Wicked Witch of the East.
I’m also disappointed in Travis. As I watched that video my first thought (besides whoa, did I just see that?) was how poorly Travis handled it. It was an absolutely golden opportunity for him (and Panteao, are you listening here?) to address how mistakes are made and safe gun handling in general. Stop production and do a short (free) segment talking about what happened, why it happened and how to keep it from happening again. FFS, we are all human. Which makes his failure to own up to it after the fact all the worse. No one expects anyone to be perfect but we do expect integrity from those who are trying to sell us their product. That goes for Panteao as well. Travis? You had a ND. Yes you did. We all saw it. We know it, you know it, the Great Ghu in the sky knows it. It’s not the end of the world. I’ve seen world class USPSA shooters ND and DQ at freaking Nationals in front of God, their peers and every gun/ammo sponsor on the planet. Get over yourself. Laugh about it, take your lumps and move on.
I’m just sum dood. But I do have choices where I spend my damn hard earned dough and ever dwindling time. Information kids. It’s not a finite item. There’s a lot of it out there and so far both parties seem to be hell bent on providing their buying public with the bad kind.
Bottom line? You’re both doing it wrong and if you think no one is taking notes you are badly mistaken.
Here’s the bottom line…Haley had an ND. It happens, Haley didn’t own up to it…that shouldn’t have happened. I don’t know Haley…don’t care too…probably couldn’t point him out of a one man line up for not caring. Whomever leaked the video probably realized Haley has been carrying on with “story telling” for a long time and it needs to stop. It’s what got him in trouble in the first place. But the most aggregious overstep here is by Haley…SCHOCKER! Now here’s the rub…why is there even a question as to whether or not this was an ND…REALLY? Please people…this was an ND, it happens, Haley should have owned up to it, he didn’t (SCHOCKER)…
http://firelancemedia.com/what-we-can-learn-from-panteaos-screw-up/
So now I see this link to some post on a blog by another trainer and he says the biggest screw up is that this video was’released in the first place…REALLY…THATS THE BIGGEST SCREW UP??? Oh…for the love in all that is holy. BIG NEGATIVE GHOST RIDER…the pattern is full!!! Yes…Panteo shouldn’t have released it, but Haley is a professional teacher who peddles his “dynamic tacticool shit” as if it’s gospel and as if he has years of “operational experience” behind it. If this would have happened to one of his competitors, I really wonder – without even knowing this cat daddy – what reaction he would have publicly spouted. I think, based on his reaction and avoidance to accept responsibility, I can predict how he would react. But here is the key take away…the biggest screwup isn’t on Panteo – and I don’t even like those idiots – it’s on Haley and Haley alone. The public who might go to this man as a professional source deserves to know what they might get into…please watch the video as he is explaining a manual of arms that doesn’t exist in the real world. The fact is, that if you follow the 4 rules of firearms safety and you abide by rule number 1 YOUR FINGER WILL NEVER BE NEAR THE TRIGGER OR IN A POSITION TO ACTIVATE THE TRIGGER IN WHATEVER FIREARM YOU’RE SHOOTING!!! That’s the biggest screw-up!!! Period…THE END!!!
And…..yes!!! Black Chinook that ass!
I was going to say the same thing (ish)… In some places of work, this type of incident will get you a one way ride on the black Chinook, without even thinking twice.
If I had a dollar for every ND with a handgun, and $5 for each with a Mk19, I could buy four gallons of gas.
My gunner in Afghanistan was handed a saw. Mind you he was a coms guy. But he thought the bolt was to be rode forward after he loaded it. Never had been in the presence of a saw. Or even knew where the safety was. Next thing we hear. RIPPPP. I jumped outta the truck and start to freak out. First thing out of his mouth. I thought the bolt was to ride forward. Luckily tho it was blanks and here in the USA. But still if you don’t have the proper training or you just don’t know then there you go. So we sat down our gunner. And told him that we were going to train him up on all the weapons systems. But he owned his ND(s). Yea 10 rounds is more then one. But he learned and I learned something too. But he also knew we had his back. And we were going to stand beside every decision he made.
I’ve seen that before as well ; individuals unfamiliar with a particular weapon AND open bolt operation is NOT a good mix. Heads up to all of you this may apply to – don’t assume anything with open bolt weapons around.
Pride. It has been the downfall of many a fine man.
Here’s the weird thing. To them they made it more important that no one was wear ear pros. Not the fact that he shot a round with a projectile flying out with the ability to kill someone. Every time you pull the trigger you have a persons life on the the other end. So screw the ear pro. Let’s talk about the ND.
The sheer number of “ND? No big deal” posts across the numerous social media sites related to this issue are extremely concerning. This is as serious as it gets, barring a Sonny Puzikas-type incident.
Strongly Agree!!!
The entire controversy surrounding this makes me extremely disappointed with the shooting community/critics/gun owners/fanboys/tactical demons of darkness out there who fail to grasp the learning potential from this non-event Because they’d rather chirp like high school girls in the locker room. It does happen, even though serious attempts to minimize the potential are made. It’s better that it happens in a training environment into a safe backstop, instead of in the movie theater, into the back of the head of the lady sitting in front of you. Or through your kids bedroom into their guts while they’re sleeping. Or into one of your students at the range. It illustrates that even Lord Thor himself is liable to inadvertently torch off a round if his booger hook plays around with the trigger of a loaded blaster. The lesson is: don’t do that.
Learn and fucking Charlie Mike.