Last month, Project Manager (PM)- Soldier Weapons (SW) queried industry about commercially available off-the-shelf (COTS) Sub Compact Weapons (SCW). The SCW is a highly concealable sub compact weapon system capable of engaging threat personnel with a high volume of lethal and accurate fires at close range with minimal collateral damage. An SCW includes but is not limited to functional weapon, magazines, cleaning kits, suppressors, specialized tool kit (if required), spare parts, slings, carrying cases, manuals.
Based on what they learned, the U.S. Army Contracting Command – New Jersey (ACC-NJ), on behalf of Project Manager (PM)- Soldier Weapons (SW), intends to make the following Firm Fixed Price contract awards, on sole source basis, to the following:
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0034
Awardee: Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC for CM9MM-9H-M5A, Colt Modular 9mm Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $22,000.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0037
Awardee: Beretta USA Corporation for Beretta PMX Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $16,000.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0038
Awardee: CMMG, Inc. for CMMG Ultra PDW Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $8,500.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0039
Awardee: CZ-USA for CZ Scorpion EVO 3 A1 Submachinegun
Amount: $14,490.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0040
Awardee: Lewis Machine & Tool Company for MARS-L9 Compact Suppressed Weapon
Amount: $21,900.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0041
Awardee: PTR Industries, Inc. for PTR 9CS Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $12,060.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0042
Awardee: Quarter Circle 10 LLC 5.5 CLT and 5.5 QV5 Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $24,070.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0043
Awardee: SIG SAUER, Inc. for SIG SAUER MPX Sub Compact Weapon
Amount: $20,160.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0044
Awardee: Trident Rifles, LLC for B&T MP9 Machine Guns
Amount: $36,000.00
Award Number: W15QKN-18-P-0045
Awardee: Zenith Firearms for Z-5RS, Z-5P and Z-5K Sub Compact Weapons
Amount: $39,060.00
These weapons will be evaluated to help inform current capabilities for the Capability Production Document for the Maneuver Support Center of Excellence. Currently, Personal Security Detail (PSD) military personnel utilize pistols and rifles, however, there is an operational need for additional concealability and lethality. Failure to provide the selected SCW for assessment and evaluation will leave PSD military personnel with a capability gap which can result in increased war fighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission.
But everyone told me SMG’s were dead!!
They are dead.
SMGs made sense back when nobody knew how to build a small rifle that could run reliably. Now that short barreled rifles are a viable thing, SMGs are obsolete.
What use is a 9mm carbine when a Mk18 gives you a 5.56 rifle of similar size and weight?
Lets be honest. What exactly is a subgun providing over a SBR?
Lower recoil, higher round count, cheaper ammunition which is actually designed to run through a shorter barrel. 5.56 suffers in barrels under 20”. It becomes less effective than 9mm in barrels under 11.5 inches. If you want a shoulderable firearm for personal protection with a barrel under 7” you’re better going with a pistol caliber than even .300 blk
Where are you getting your ballistics from. You think 9mm from a 10 inch barrel has a advantage over 5.56 from a 10inch barrel. Its not even close in terms of advantage 5.56 has over 9mm. Also a M855A1 round is lighter than. M882 round. So not sure how you are getting a higher round count also.
That’s not what we’re talking about though.you loose about 150fps/ inch with 5.56 when you get below 11.5. the heavier bullets delay that an inch or two. .300 blk falls off the same way at 7″(with supers,largely irrelavent in subs). these are sub 5″ guns they’re looking at. Really short guns have been out there in the civilian world for abou 20 years, the data is out there. .300 is still slightly better but not by much.
556 suffers in barrel under 20 in? Not by much, we have guys who were able to make hits at 500 meters with a scoped 10.4 that ran 70 grain bullet.
Subgun lower recoil!? Have you shot any of the guns on the list here!?
The straight blowback guns here (esp the CZ EVO), all have more recoil than a 556. It’s just physics.
Compactness and concealment. It is not wise to run a MK18/HK416 with a murder purse everywhere you go.
Well I agree about the compactness. Ive had to break down my MK18 to carry it in a low vis bag. We can get the Sig rattled down to roughly the same size as most of these weapons submitted. At that point with a 300BLK we got a better ballistics.
That is why the Rattler came into the system. Remember when Black Mamba/LVAW came in for T/E? It ended up being a game changer and a real deal replacement of the MP5SD after SIG fixed a bunch of issues.
And yet so any of us are still forced to stuff Mk.18s under prayer rugs in soft skin vehicles and carry around man purses.
Sometimes, running a soft skin vehicle is an only option. We both know that. Regarding the MK18 dilemma, your only other option is to run an MP5. The only problem with that is, most of us love life a bit too much to do that.
What’s wrong with the MP5 EricJ? Serious question.
Ammo accessibility for the white side. Plus being smaller that a 10.4/10.3. Those are the only two real reasons. The most retarded choice is running AR patterned 9 mm. Fucking Colt SMG all over again.
I thought the only [continued] point of an SMG was better suppression for indoor/confined uses where 5.56 was potentially prohibitively loud.
You are partially correct. The new 147gr hollow point that is about to get into the system makes an SMG run at around 129db to 131db. The SIG Rattler in 300blk suppressed is about 120db. A 10.3/10.4 suppressed 5.56 is about 136db.
Interesting/impressive, thanks. I feel like a “300 Rattler is the obvious choice, change my mind” meme would work here 😉
It is an obvious choice but here is a problem. Ammo procurement, 300blk is not in the system and 9mm is. 9mm is cheaper but the terminal effect on 190gr 300blk subs is just, yummy. 300blk is only procured for two SMU elements. While a certain maritime element has pretty much went back to MP5SD and left the MP7 to the canine handlers.
Yummy? Is that a ballistics industry term?
Why not HK ? If Zenith is going to submit MP5 clones why not the real thing?
They don’t make them any more!
They still make them but production should be over by the fall of this year. With official production, there is a need to be a parts support system in place. That is why HK is out of the game.
My Bad, just looked on website and MP5 still showing, thought they had phased it out for the UMP.
The Weapon this would be replacing would be the MP5K if I am not mistaken. Your not likely to replace the MP5 and or MP5K with it’s self and moving to the UMP would mean a larger SMG. The Smaller offering would be the MP7 but that’s in 4.6mm. Besides if Zenith is already offering MP5 clones why would HK bother even if it entered something?
They are replacing the MP5K, Most of them still have the extractor problems and receiver wear, at least the ones that I have seen. HK wont sell the improved type 2 bolt that they sold to KSK/KSM as an upgrade. It pretty much eliminates the extractor spring problems. MP7 has no stopping power unless you put a third of a mag into the guy.
Literally the most useless thing they could possibly want to procure. If they really need a small pistol-caliber gun that can be shouldered, they should buy the B&T USW (P320 grip with a thin folding stock that still fits in a normal holster). Same magazines, same spare parts, some everything. You just bought the P320/M17 because of its modularity, now make use of its modularity.
But obviously they’re trying to buy something with a similar size and weight of a 10.5″ AR that only shoots 9mm. That’s cool too, I guess.
Have you seen the P320 Carbine chassis from EXO ONE? You don’t really need anything that robust tbh. A stock of any kind works just as well.
agreed. use the modularity.
Shocked Kriss Vector wasn’t on the list! Those things are nasty in the full auto/2rd burst version!
Very cool. Would have been funny if SIG also submitted the MCX Rattler, since it blows a subgun out of the water in range and lethality, all in the same size envelope.
It also blows your eardrums out of the water 🙂
I didn’t mind it.
Think cost of ammo and world wide avaliblity would prevent them even considering the rattler in 300blk.
It’s actually not as loud as you think 160db v 168db of a g36 in 5.56, FYI
Correct, the ammo availability is scarce within SOCOM. The T/E period with SF has been over for a while and at the end of it all they did not adapt the round. 98% of the ammo goes and stays with three SMU’s the other 2% goes to CRANE.
Maybe after the inevitable recall.
With the thing are going, you might be right. LOL
It’s much closer than you think out of that 5.5″ barrel. You’re only getting 1700 fps or so with a 110gr load tailored to that barrel length and as bad as 1500 . 9mm 115gr+p loads will run 1450-1500 out of a 5.5″ barrel. There are some good loads that will run 80-90gr solids at 1650. While you still have a better BC out of the 300 , it may or may not be worth the downsides of increased size,weight, and decreased ammo supply.
Dumb idea. We keep bringing back old ideas because we figured out they don’t work and forget why.
A company makes a stock kit for the 320 and extended magazines. That’d make a better idea than to field a whole new platform of weapons. We abandoned sub guns because for the same package size you could get a 5.56 carbine which was way more powerful and less problems with compatibility.
We still have a responsibility to NOT waste tax payer money.
Agreed.
Sig is gonna win, calling it now. Maybe they’ll go NGSAR Sig and just full fleet Sig stuff.
/S but maybe not.
SIG might win, after the 4th bolt and carrier revision and improved QC. To simplify it, the M17 alone is already a laughing stock within SOF, that should tell you something.
Why not the MP7? Did it not fit the criteria?
Lack of stopping power unless you pump a third of mag into a guy. The gun is not particularity liked by the end users. That was one of the reasons of 300blk coming into the scene.
The MP7 is a tricky bird. Essentially, everyone knows that someone has them, because they left magazines on a battlefield, but as far as the acquisition community is concerned, they aren’t in the DoD system. Same goes for the ammo.
There are plenty of pics of guys running them, but not the kind of guys that wear much in the way of identifiers. Suspect that’s what is being replaced by the NSW 300blk PDW.
You do realize that 300blk is already more or less in the system for SMUs? The Rattler is based on LVAW concept that was shrunk down. The original two users are anything but the NSW. The MP7 is primarily a NSW toy if you don’t count a single civilian user. If you can call them civilians but that is like calling us choir boys. MP7 is a great weapon so great that you tend to go Winchester halfway though the assault.
I had a hard time following you there. There’s a NSW program to buy a kit to convert a standard lower to something like a Rattler,though it doesnt specify it. That’s exactly what I’m saying is that NSW is probably going to replace the MP7 with them. 4.6 and 5.7 probably make a decent survival round but that’s about the extent of my defense of them.
It’s not a NSW only program, all three of the SMU’s will be using it. What I am saying is, 4.6 and 5.7 do not have the stopping power.The MP7 was a PDW/support weapon for snipers and canine handlers. It still fulfills this role for canine handlers. Since snipers went back tho MP5SD until they get their hands on the rattler as a MP5SD/MP7 replacement. See Midwest Industries Rattler suppressed hand guard.
Familiar with the handguard, any Idea on the can they’ll use with it?
I did not see any mention of an optic for these weapon systems. My suggestion would be Aimpoint Micro T2 or Trijicon MRO with Absolute Cowitness optic mounts.
I like all the guys here saying “oh but MP7!!”… not realizing that despite not being eligible, it’s larger than the MP9 that is being evaluated.
The B&T is the smallest gun on this list. It has flaws, but for PSD does make sense.
It needs to be CONUS made. Big army and SOCOM still have to sit at the little kids table. Only JSOC can procure foreign made weapons. As they say, big boy rules.
And… What are your thoughts on them already submitting via Trident Rifles? Clearly they’re going to try and produce it in the states if it was selected.
They can submit all they want. Will it be approved for operational use, Probably not. Same thing, when MP7 came in DG in 01, some SF elements bought some for T/E in 05. Did they get approved for use on the SOCOM side, no. Now they are collecting dust in an a armory.